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frenzy; mounts?
Topic Started: Dec 27 2012, 10:12 AM (653 Views)
Khurdur
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The Chosen
Do chaos knight horses or skullcrusher juggers benefit from the extra attack from frenzy? In the main rulbook it states they don't...does the mark of Khorne override this?
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R3do
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The Warptongue
This thing has been debated for ages now, as frenzy normally is given for rider and not to mount but Marks are effected to whole model so technically mount should gain this frenzy, but if mount is monster, it wouldn't gain it because it isn't anymore one model with rider.

Anyway this thing has no answer yet and best way to clear this, is to talk about it with ur opponen/gaming grp etc.
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rothgar13
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Clanlord
...Actually, there is an answer to this. Some people just refuse to acknowledge it for some reason. It's right here, BRB p. 82:

"If either the rider or the mount have Frenzy, then the whole model is subject to the Berserk Rage, but only the element with the Frenzy rule gains an Extra Attack."

Next, let's look at the Mark of Khorne text. From the WoC book, p. 110:

"A model with the Mark of Khorne is subject to Frenzy."

Now, let's go to the army list section. When you look at whom can be granted the Mark of Chaos, it's the unit, and the unit refers to the riders, not the mounts. Ergo, the Frenzy's +1A does not affect the mount, only the rider. The Banner of Rage is an exception to this, and that's because the latest FAQ added text to it. From the WoC FAQ entry on the Banner of Rage, p. 2:

"Add “If given to a unit of cavalry, both the riders and their mounts count as affected elements for the purposes of the Extra Attack special rule.”"

Why would they feel the need to point that out? Simple - Frenzy does not affect the mount by default. And the Banner of Rage's text pre-FAQ is indistinguishable from that of Mark of Khorne.

Can we put this "argument" to rest, now?
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Mungojerrie
The Chosen
I agree with you regarding chaos knights rothgar. I do however think that the way the rules has been written regarding skullcrushers the whole model is subject to mark of khorne and therefore the whole modelhas frenzy. It is not a purchase in the same manner as mark of khorne is for chaos knights.
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rothgar13
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Clanlord
It's the same thing, man. A Khorne-marked model is the same as a Khorne-marked unit - the only difference is that the model doesn't get to choose another mark, like all the other units do.
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Mungojerrie
The Chosen
rothgar13
Dec 28 2012, 09:13 AM
It's the same thing, man. A Khorne-marked model is the same as a Khorne-marked unit - the only difference is that the model doesn't get to choose another mark, like all the other units do.
But is it really? How would you for example treat a khorne marked chariot? How would you treat a soulblight? You would give the whole unit lower strength and you would give both crewmen an extra attack. Why is it different regarding mounts that specifically are affected by the rule?
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rothgar13
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Clanlord
Because Frenzy specifically says to treat it that way. The major piece of evidence is the BRB bit I quoted for how to treat Cav with Frenzy.
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R3do
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The Warptongue
Im still not buying this because as u said MODEL gets Mark and isn't one knight/skullcrusher counted as one model with that mount. U cannot buy that mount because it comes with model.

Also other thing is MoS

Example if u see chariot/cavalry of Cold Ones and they fail their stupidity test. Isn't it on mount and not on rider specificlly said in their rules. Well if this is case then what happens if unit of Hellstriders are near ur own unit which got destroyed on that same spot. Does this mount have MoS ability? If not then it should need to take panic test as they cannot control their mounts will just like cannot cold one riders do.

I maybe of the trails with this example so don't be mad if Im wrong in this one :) but I still don't understand why mount won't get it if it effect to whole model.

Also what comes fro Banner of Rage. I think it is changed to what it is right now just because book is coming and they gonna change MoK example Hatred or something.
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cross
The Chosen
rothgar has this argument nailed to a dead tree. the argument should be over. everyone has their answer.

if you try to argue the other way in a game people will think your a tool, win at all cost kind of player and ruin the game.

its a couple of attacks.... let it go people...
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R3do
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The Warptongue
Yeah it is only one attack and I don't really really care which way is right way. But as we can see all players won't think like I or cross do. Some players really wanna ruin game this game and start whining about it. If my opponent and I don't see eye to eye, we roll dice. No harm will come from that and game will move on :)
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Mungojerrie
The Chosen
rothgar13
Dec 28 2012, 02:09 PM
Because Frenzy specifically says to treat it that way. The major piece of evidence is the BRB bit I quoted for how to treat Cav with Frenzy.
The rules for frenzy do not say that. They say that if only a part of the model is subject to frenzy (for example a chaos lord, with mark of khorne riding a deamonic mount) then the whole model is still subject to berserk rage. I must therefore test if i must charge or not. The brb do not help when discussing a model that in the rules for the specific model is wholly affected by the frenzy rule. Do the model only gain one attack? Or do every attack stat line increase by one? I would say it is the same as with chariots. Both charioteers get an extra attack.

I would like to draw parallells to the smithing spell by tomb kings. If cast on a warsphinx they get 4 extra attacks for the 4 crewmen and 1 extra attack for the sphinx. The rules in wd regarding skullcrushers state in the units special rules that the unit has mark of khorne. This is not something that is bought as a mark for the riders. It is in the rules for the unit. Therefore the juggers is also affected.
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Calamity
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Clanlord
page 82 If either the rider or the mount have frenzy then the whole model is subject to the berserk rage, but only the element with the frenzy rule gains an extra attack. But i do agree unless knights get the choice 2 demount since his mount dies(for knights ther 1st failed armour save in close combat should kill the horse instead) then both horse n knight gains frenzy
Edited by Calamity, Jan 1 2013, 06:54 PM.
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AnomalyOfAwesome
The Chosen
Anyone trying to say this argument has been set to rest is deluding themselves. Until we get an FAQ or errata that clearly spells it out, then we can expect these discussions to continue to pop up. The issue, once again, is vague wording. You can claim you have narrowed it down, but you have to be able to convince everyone else that the wording is not vague, which is obviously hard to do. Rothgar seems sure that his way is right, but Calamity seems to think the same. Until we have a definitive answer in the form of actual documentation, we will not have a final verdict. So, original poster, your best bet is to discuss it with the person/person that you are playing with, and see what they think on the matter, since there is not official ruling, yet.
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SabreDeC
Madame Illustrator
[ * ]
AnomalyOfAwesome
Jan 2 2013, 07:35 PM
Anyone trying to say this argument has been set to rest is deluding themselves. Until we get an FAQ or errata that clearly spells it out, then we can expect these discussions to continue to pop up. The issue, once again, is vague wording. You can claim you have narrowed it down, but you have to be able to convince everyone else that the wording is not vague, which is obviously hard to do. Rothgar seems sure that his way is right, but Calamity seems to think the same. Until we have a definitive answer in the form of actual documentation, we will not have a final verdict. So, original poster, your best bet is to discuss it with the person/person that you are playing with, and see what they think on the matter, since there is not official ruling, yet.
You are good people. I tend to be in the same opinion as Calamity as the rules for the Skullcrushers say the unit (which includes the mounts) have the MoK, and thus the frenzy special rule. The only real way you can exclude the juggernauts is to say they are effectively not members of the unit, which is absurd.

HOWEVER, if your opponent doesn't agree with you, it is a far better option to simply concede the argument and not be an asshat player. After all, it IS only one attack per mount...Until the new book is out (hopefully) we won't really have a definitive answer.
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wargame_insomniac
The Chosen
This is a magor reason that I have started takking Banner of Rage on unit Chaos Knights with enosorcelled weapons. The faq is crytal clear that not only does mount get +1A but that also keep frenzy even if don't win combat. Given that they also retain their S5 that makes them very durable.

If rumours on change to MoK also come true then will probably add MoK as well.
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