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| The Trouble with Ogres??; having real problems against ogres. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 12 2013, 06:08 AM (568 Views) | |
| dawgfather | Jan 12 2013, 06:08 AM Post #1 |
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Slave
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Hey Yall, sorry if this is in the wrong place, im new. i've been playing WOC for two years now and ive got a good handle on them never really bn massacred and ive got alot more wins under my belt wiv them than losses.... im not a power gamer, got a tzeentch themed army with no chosen deathstar cheddar, however my friend has recently started playing new ogre kingdoms and im having masive problems with them. im talking real bad, he's 6-0 and 4 outa the 6 have been massacres.....WTF. were a friendly group too hes only put down the dreaded Gutstar once and he apologised after it, if anyone has any advice it would be much appreciated... i am trying to avoid a khorne mauraders horde & a tzeench chosen bus....but lol.... |
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| Jediknight620 | Jan 12 2013, 06:40 AM Post #2 |
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'Zerker
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Greetings, I've provided some advice along the way for Ogre since I face them quite often in my meta. Here is a bit of info and if you check my posting history I think I've had a couple more posts pointing our strengths and weaknesses against Ogre Kingdoms. -> Click Me <- Hopefully that helps. Feel free to ask questions if you need to. |
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| dawgfather | Jan 12 2013, 07:27 AM Post #3 |
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Slave
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Much appreciated, and thanks for the rapid response bro, ive had a good trawl through a shed loada posts and they all kida say the same thing.... gonna have to avoid those bitchin ogre charges i feel. |
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| Khornefed | Jan 13 2013, 02:48 AM Post #4 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Ive seen about 3 different O.K. builds. The dual Cannon with other shooters, the Ogre Death Star: an Ogre Horde lined up with characters in the front, and the "Balanced" list with what I would call a nice mix. Key against all of these is their relatively low leadership. Pandemonium (Tzeentch) spell coupled with: Hellcannon shots/terror tests, Doom Totem, Transmorgification spell, and any thing else that goes against the models leadership essentially. If you get pandemoium off a couple of times in a game, you'll probably be able to watch his army crumble. The guy that tried all the ogre tricks on me when I was running beasts (and stuffed me good regularly), was unhappily surprised when I turned the tables on him with Tzeetch magic on a WoC army. I've also seen Slaanesh magic work on them pretty well, though I don't use it myself. Anything that attacks Init. is also going to play havoc with Ogres, so POS, Purple Sun, etc will expend his dispel scroll early and allow your Pandemonium to probably get snuck in when its really to your advantage. I do hate the fact that I have to pretty much one-trick Ogre opponents. I feel like I'm being set up. But thats the rock-paper-scissors nature of GW games. |
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| DarkChilde | Jan 13 2013, 12:25 PM Post #5 |
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The Chosen
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I have voiced my complaints against Ogre kingdoms many times. I don't think the codex's author Jeremy Vetok (the same guy who wrote Skaven) cares at all about game balance. He sits out to make a codex that is intentionally over the top, while Phil Kelly (who unfortunately wrote the new Chaos Space Marine codex, our current WOC codex, and maybe, but I hope not, our next codex) goes for a fluffy "balanced" approach to writing codexes that makes them underwhelming. We do have some ways to deal with Ogres, Lore of Shadow to get a Melekoth's off reducing the Ogre weaponskill to 1 and then having the mark of nurgle to bring it down to Zero (evidently with the faq reads on teh mark you can do this) is a very nice trick that another poster Rothgar13 told me about, but I agree with Khornefed that pretty much as a WOC player I feel like you have to cater your list specifically to Ogres to have a shot a beating them and if you take a balanced all comers list then whatever list the Ogre Kingdom player has will probably win. Edited by DarkChilde, Jan 13 2013, 12:26 PM.
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| wargame_insomniac | Jan 13 2013, 10:18 PM Post #6 |
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The Chosen
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In my first game against them recently I got spanked. My 80 strong Marauder Horde with GW and MoK suffered 41 casualties in first turn and 25 in second. Got hit by 18 strong Ogre Bull Horde with 3 characters and buffed +1S & +1T. Impact hits and Thunderstomps hurt big time. Only unit that stood a chance against them was my Warriors with MoT and HWS. Second time around I tweaked my list to force more Ld tests and was luckier with spells selection. Things that worked well for me: -Warriors with MoT and HWS- may not do much damage but a good unit to blunt initial charge with good armour, and Parry/Invulnerable saves -Knights with ensorcelled weapons and Banner of Wrath (always keep Frenzy plus get Frenzy on mounts- hangs on in there with 3 S5 attacks per Knight) -combo of Pandaemonium and Infernal Puppet -causing Terror (through Banner or spell) plus Doom Totem -Slaanesh Spell that causes Panic tests plus Daibolic Splendour (plus Doom Totem) -Warshrine for buffs (even +1S and +1T are always useful -Baleful Transmogrification always good, especially if Pandaemonium already cast -Infernal Gateway always useful Thats only based on most recent game. Others will have more concrete advice built up over may more games vs Ogres so listen to them. But hope the above gives you 1-2 ideas. I will definitely be using all of the above in future games vs Ogres. Cheers James |
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| Calamity | Jan 13 2013, 10:31 PM Post #7 |
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Clanlord
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i love orges that bring gut stars, 1spell 2 rule them all infernal gateway xD used it 2 on a high elf lord(his general) on dragon 2day n he was sent in2 the void :P easy 500+points
Edited by Calamity, Jan 13 2013, 10:35 PM.
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| Khurdur | Jan 15 2013, 06:35 AM Post #8 |
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The Chosen
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I don't know brethren I don't seem to struggle much against ogres....my regular opponent takes a balanced list approach with dual cannons, 2-3 units of 6 ogre bulls, a unit of 4 mournfang, and a unit of 6-7 maneaters and a Lv.4, and a stonehorn. As long as my unit have good cc, I tend to win. 20 khorne halberd warriors tend to shred any unit of his except the mournfang. Maruaders should avoid his big units, and avoid being charged, especially by the mournfang. The cannons can be problematic specially for knights and skullcrushers, but sometime they will misfire. Point for point, we are better in close combat. I play a 25 man unit of Tzeentch warriors with GW or halberds and shields, and give them banner of rage and an exalted usually with a collar khorne...they can usually shred any ogre unit no matter how big.... even 18 ogre bull or ironguts will probably be fought to a standstill, for far less points. oh, and gateway is a good idea for mournfang, stonehorn or perhaps cannons if he gives you a shot |
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| Harbinger | Jan 16 2013, 01:49 PM Post #9 |
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The Chosen
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The problem with fighting the gut bus is that if he is running 15+, your looking at over 45+ wounds. We have to do a significant number of wounds before we start lowering their combat effectiveness, where as if they get the charge on us, it could potentially take them 1 round to start affecting our combat abilities. The best recourse against them i have found is Shadow magic, due to the miasma being able to lower their weapon skill and str/toughness. Movement can be a bit of a help too, but its nice to watch your opponents face when he runs into marauders with mournfangs and then you cast mindrazor on them. The cannons can be a real pain in the back side, and the mournfangs can hold our knights in place all day with so many wounds and high armour save. Hell cannons are ok at killing their monsters and smaller units, but they kinda lose their punch when only the center guy of a big unit is hit with multiple wounds. Halberds on warriors with banner of rage plus MoN is a good way to go for combat. You naturally lower their WS by one and you pump out just as many attacks at str5. |
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| Khurdur | Jan 16 2013, 09:17 PM Post #10 |
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The Chosen
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a gutstar is usually comprised of what? 15-18 ironguts? They roll attacks for the first three ranks, due to being a horde, as in 9x3, so 27 attacks, and three characters in the front rank, a tyrant or a lvl 4? It all seems a bit expensive to me, we can avoid the unit and crush everything else, and the combi-chrage it. Ironguts are like 43 points per man |
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| Hinge | Jan 17 2013, 12:51 AM Post #11 |
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Exalted Guardian
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The problem a Gutstar like that it is a pretty hefty point sink. You will be able to chaff it up, attack the rest of his army, than hit the big boy on multiple flanks. Flanks will degrade his damage output significantly and he will be unable to reform if engaged on multiple sides. This gutstar is hugely vulnerable to Death magic. Doom and darkness will mitigate stubborn and make panic tests for him an adventure (Hell cannons and taking out sabretusks should provide the opportunity). Purple Sun will rip the heart out of the unit. I have had a lot of success against Ogres with WoC. It really comes down to dictating the terms of the engagement. This is not easy with their high movement and multiple single sabertusks. I always target the sabertusks early. Not only are they usually close enough to force panic tests on other parts of the army, it allows me to win the chaff war quickly. A little tidbit. Run your dogs 3x2 against OK. It allows them to take on solo Sabertusks on a more even basis. Plus they are more maneuverable. |
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| Ring_of_Gyges | Jan 17 2013, 03:20 AM Post #12 |
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Slave
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Remember that you don't have to kill every model in his army to win, you just have to kill more points than he does. A massive unit of Iron Guts is very hard to fight, so don't. Someone mentioned a horde of Iron Guts (maybe 15 Ogres with 3 characters for example). A unit like that is clocking in at over 1,000pts maybe as much as 1,500 depending on how it is kitted out. Charging your best units into it and fighting it head on is exactly what it wants. Chuck 30pts of warhounds in front of it. Chuck 80pts of Marauder cav in front of it at funny angles. Four units of hounds are a tenth the points and can keep it out of combat for a big chunk of the game. Meanwhile the other 2400pts of your army is smashing into the other 1000pts of his. If you do have to fight them, the mark of Nurgle is excellent. A lot of people like Nurgle Knights with the Banner of Rage. Bulls and Iron Guts are WS3, meaning they're hitting Nurgle knights or warriors on 5's. You'll need halberds or great weapons to reliably wound the Ogres, but getting them down to hitting on 5's is a huge help. Alternatively Miasma is easy to cast and can get their WS down against none Nurgle troops. Mournfang cavalry will chew up huge numbers of rank and file infantry, but Skullcrushers are the same cost and overall stronger with higher strength, better armor, more toughness, and better weapon skill. Smash skullcrushers into Mournfangs and you should come out fine. Ironblasters are really really strong, especially against Chaos armies with high cost models that rely on armor saves or toughness (knights, skullcrushers, chariots, warriors). Light troops won't kill them (they're T6 with 5 wounds and have 7 attacks in CC). Magic can kill them (they're only Ld 7 if you want to Spirit Leach them), but again 5 wounds is a lot to get through. The best option to kill them might be a lord on a disc who can fly in under the protection of a 3+ ward and arrive with enough force to chop them up. I'd also give an opponent a bit of a teasing if he took two, unless you're in a very competitive scene he should leave one of the two at home. Those are the units I feel like are the biggest threats. Do you have a good sense of which of his units cause you the most trouble? |
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| dawgfather | Jan 22 2013, 08:20 PM Post #13 |
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Slave
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Hey guys, Khurdur makes the point I always feel, it's the mass of wounds in large ogre units I find daunting, ive caused 8 wounds... He takes of two models and puts a wounds marker down, then he attacks back In Hoard... And stomps me with twice the attacks I've had...squish!! Lol Darkchilde maybe also hits the nail on the head, I'm running a solely tzeentch themed army and it does seem that with our current book we do have to "tailor" our lists when dealing with ogres. Tzeentchread magic rocks, however there banner of "you're magic does nothing on a 2plus" kinda puts paid to that.... I must confess after Reading Jediknight620's post I came to the conclussion that purple sun is king, however.... I've attempted it 5 times now and never got it of... Ironically on 2 dice on 2 occasions I've rolled IF on doom n darkness and watched my level 4 go up in a cloud of purple smoke.... Hehe, you have to see the funny side, thus brings me to the conclussion that relying on "the spell", or any for that matter, isn't really tactics?? Gonna have to either be damn lucky or no longer be a mono god army when I play O.K if I wanna be in wiv a shout it would seem?? I'll try the leadership bomb next time I play I think guys see how that works out. Again thanks for the advice I'm loving the chamber! |
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| son of bretonnia | Jan 26 2013, 11:09 PM Post #14 |
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The Chosen
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Yesterday I played an 2v.s.2 - 2400 Pts battle. My friend and I were dark elves and WOC. The enemies were high elves and ogres (a good combo :P). We all had non-friendly lists. We were were up against the gutstar with 2 charaters. They also had many more nasty units. The thing was, as said before, the gutstar unit costed around 1200 Pts. My friend (dark elves) had a lord on a steed with the sick reverse ward save and stubborn. He ended up killing the gutstar on his own (you gotta fight nasty units with nasty countre units right). We can field the disc lord with 3+ ward save and stubborn. Why not send him to charge the gutstar (as late as possible)? It's the same tactic we used. Only our defence is slightly worse. I also found that trolls are great against ogres. |
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| Ghular | Jan 26 2013, 11:47 PM Post #15 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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I was literally about to say the same thing as everyone else said lol. Since you're Tzeentch themed, why not try a disk Lord o'stubborn and cram it down his biggest units throat to hold them up, then focus on the rest of his army. Either that, or as everyone suggested, feed it chaff and magic it to death with as much anti leadership tricks as you can muster. Ironically for me, as much as everyone calls the Mark of Nurgle useless or at least siutational, I have an army that's all marked with Nurgle that tends to suddenly do great against some of the strongest armies out there, and still holds it's own against anything else. Nurgle magic tends to be very powerful against Lizardmen and Ogres and the synergy with the mark starts to really tip combats if you set up the right combats, so while those two armies still aren't a walk in the park for me, I don't have as much a problem as everyone else for those armies. |
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