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Nurgle Chaos Lord Challenge Monkey; Very annoying build
Topic Started: Apr 19 2013, 01:44 PM (1,276 Views)
DarkSchneider
Clanlord
The problem with those specific builds is always the same.
This is a great challenge guy, true, but who tells you he's going to be in those challenges? I can see that happen only against Greater Demons, when you're basically forcing them not to charge that unit, but even there it's risky because they can get nasty gifts (like no AS or KB), and good old DP.
You made the example of the vampire lord, well, he's never going to challenge you, and if you do, he will simply accept with unit champion and raise him back every turn, or sacrifice cheap characters (wraiths, banshee, or even necromancers) to gain time while the vamp lord grinds your unit to dust.
An effective Chaos Lord build should either be able to hold any unit on his own, and possibly make some points in the meantime, or be a global support for your main combat unit.
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Palmu
Warrior of the Chamber
And that's why I like the Hellfire sword. Trade defense for offense, but everyone other than greater daemons will have a hard time deciding whether to fight him or not. If you fight, you might die horribly. But if you don't half your unit might explode. And Nurgle douchebags aren't easy to kill.
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Wulfrik
Member Avatar
The Chosen
Palmu
Apr 20 2013, 11:57 PM
And that's why I like the Hellfire sword. Trade defense for offense, but everyone other than greater daemons will have a hard time deciding whether to fight him or not. If you fight, you might die horribly. But if you don't half your unit might explode. And Nurgle douchebags aren't easy to kill.
Only problem with Hellfire sword is Flaming Attacks. Makes it great against Trolls and Hellpits and Hydras, yeah, but the second he gets into combat with someone with the Dragonbane Gem or the Dragonbane Helm, he's worthless. That's something you have to be prepared to fight, because those are two very popular items.
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propervillanz
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A Manly Muppet
I like the build and it looks like it would do its job pretty well. In my local meta the sword of anitheroes is not as popular as the ogre blade on the chuck norris vamp lord, i would love to see the numbers of this guy vs that build. Also, the Obsidian Blade is growing in popularity in my gaming group so i would be far too afraid of fielding this guy regularly, but i do like the concept a lot.
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phantomduck
Slave
[ * ]
Except KB ,dont underastiamte magic.
He can die from Death lore (no ward :( ) or after a couple of double bunishment light council army.
Plus if you have a lord u cant have a mage level 4 and imo , chaos need magic to make their quality units to survive, be more efective and to have balance on each phases. (i always run a level4 death mage on my chaos)
But KB and Death lore is nightmare for him , otherwise is very good setup.
Edited by phantomduck, Apr 21 2013, 05:42 AM.
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Palmu
Warrior of the Chamber
Wulfrik
Apr 21 2013, 03:09 AM
Only problem with Hellfire sword is Flaming Attacks. Makes it great against Trolls and Hellpits and Hydras, yeah, but the second he gets into combat with someone with the Dragonbane Gem or the Dragonbane Helm, he's worthless. That's something you have to be prepared to fight, because those are two very popular items.
Yeah, that's happened to me a few times. I guess that's the price you pay for overwhelming power. And once I even punched through the +2 ward and instakilled the vamplord :p. But nowadays I keep a challengemonkey BSB geared for survival in the unit for those cases.

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kris_kapsner
Clanlord
Rorak Fangtaker
Apr 20 2013, 04:17 AM
iggy666
Apr 20 2013, 12:47 AM
He can be Killing Blowed because he is an Infantry model, regardless of what he is mounted on.
I thought that if you mount him on a Monstrous beast it makes the whole model monstrous cavalry so he couldn't be KBd. Am I incorrect in this?
This is a very confusing FAQ on GW's part because they don't seem to know how to read their own rules.

In the basic rule book, the rules for mounted characters specifically say that a character mounted on a war beast becomes a cavalry model and follows all the rules for cavalry. And, a character mounted on a monstrous beast becomes a monstrous cavalry model and follows all the rules for monstrous cav. Then, under the Killing Blow rule, monstrous cavalry aren't listed as being effected by Killing Blow. Seems as straight forward as it gets.

Then they released this FAQ:
Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.

So, obviously GW doesn't know how to read their own rules. This particular ruling happens to sit ill with me. I don't understand how a skullcrusher is immune to killing blow, but then an exalted champion on a juggernaut in that unit can be killed with killing blow. It makes no sense.
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MyNameDidntFit
The Dark Prince
Wulfrik
Apr 21 2013, 03:09 AM
Palmu
Apr 20 2013, 11:57 PM
And that's why I like the Hellfire sword. Trade defense for offense, but everyone other than greater daemons will have a hard time deciding whether to fight him or not. If you fight, you might die horribly. But if you don't half your unit might explode. And Nurgle douchebags aren't easy to kill.
Only problem with Hellfire sword is Flaming Attacks. Makes it great against Trolls and Hellpits and Hydras, yeah, but the second he gets into combat with someone with the Dragonbane Gem or the Dragonbane Helm, he's worthless. That's something you have to be prepared to fight, because those are two very popular items.
I don't think he's worthless. D3 wounds and no armour save mitigates that somewhat: Facing down a 2++ when you do D3 wounds isn't likely that much worse than facing a 1+/4++ and doing 1 wound.

Unless it's a MoTz Third Eye character... then you're boned.
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Rob Strachan
Warrior of the Chamber
kris_kapsner
Apr 21 2013, 10:04 AM
Rorak Fangtaker
Apr 20 2013, 04:17 AM
iggy666
Apr 20 2013, 12:47 AM
He can be Killing Blowed because he is an Infantry model, regardless of what he is mounted on.
I thought that if you mount him on a Monstrous beast it makes the whole model monstrous cavalry so he couldn't be KBd. Am I incorrect in this?
This is a very confusing FAQ on GW's part because they don't seem to know how to read their own rules.

In the basic rule book, the rules for mounted characters specifically say that a character mounted on a war beast becomes a cavalry model and follows all the rules for cavalry. And, a character mounted on a monstrous beast becomes a monstrous cavalry model and follows all the rules for monstrous cav. Then, under the Killing Blow rule, monstrous cavalry aren't listed as being effected by Killing Blow. Seems as straight forward as it gets.

Then they released this FAQ:
Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.

So, obviously GW doesn't know how to read their own rules. This particular ruling happens to sit ill with me. I don't understand how a skullcrusher is immune to killing blow, but then an exalted champion on a juggernaut in that unit can be killed with killing blow. It makes no sense.
He can be killing blowed because he is a character who is bought a mount rather than coming with the mount as standard like the crushers are.

The real question is, are crushers able to be killing blowed once they dismount to assaut a building?
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Wulfrik
Member Avatar
The Chosen
Rob Strachan
Apr 21 2013, 11:39 AM
He can be killing blowed because he is a character who is bought a mount rather than coming with the mount as standard like the crushers are.

The real question is, are crushers able to be killing blowed once they dismount to assaut a building?
First thing: we all know how the rule works. He was pointing out that it's stupid, and I have to agree. It makes no sense for a character on a Monstrous Cavalry mount, that has the troop type of "Monstrous Cavalry," to be able to be killing blow'd when Monstrous Cavalry is normally immune. That's the difference between the Skullcrushers and the Exalted Hero on the Juggernaut... but there really, really shouldn't be a difference between them at all. They're both big, scary metal men riding big, scary metal beasts; why can one have his head chopped off and the other can't?

For your question, hilariously enough no, RAW they would still be considered Monstrous Cavalry despite being off of their mounts. The rules for Cavalry going into buildings state this:
Quote:
 
Nevertheless, we do allow cavalry models to assault buildings (as covered in the Battlefield Terrain chapter on page 126). We assume that the riders tether their mounts a short way from the fight before charging home on foot — accordingly, the mounts cannot fight, only the riders (and clearly the riders will not receive any armour save bonus from their mount during the fight!).

And then Monstrous Cavalry says that "all the rules for Cavalry" apply to them, which includes this bit above (seriously, why put these rules in the troop type section and not in the part about buildings?). Notice how it doesn't say they change unit type, despite getting off of their horses. Does it make sense? No, but then again neither do a lot of things in this frickin' game. For example: why is it that Monstrous Cavalry count as three guys when assaulting a building when their mounts can't actually attack, and they can't use the mounts wounds?

So basically, just never assault a building with Monstrous Cavalry. GW really, really hates them attacking buildings for some reason.
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MyNameDidntFit
The Dark Prince
I'm not so sure on the Wounds part. I don't know building rules too well, does it state that somewhere? They're still MC and still have the higher W value on their profile, so I'd say they use it still.
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Wulfrik
Member Avatar
The Chosen
MyNameDidntFit
Apr 21 2013, 03:08 PM
I'm not so sure on the Wounds part. I don't know building rules too well, does it state that somewhere? They're still MC and still have the higher W value on their profile, so I'd say they use it still.
It doesn't actually say anything about it anywhere. All it says about monstrous cavalry is that they use the same rules as cavalry. Then the rules for cavalry entering buildings are right there, in the Troop Type section, and you can read those in my last post.

I'm only guessing they wouldn't use the wounds since the mount is basically ignored for the fight. It's sitting outside, so you don't get to attack with it and you don't get to use any armor it would give you. With that in mind, it seems logical that you wouldn't get to use its Wounds, since those are sitting outside the building. Another question just popped into my head: would you get stomps? I'd say yes, RAW you would, since you're still counted as being MC and stomp is just part of their rules in general.
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MyNameDidntFit
The Dark Prince
Well, given that I'm sure being stomped on by a Chaos Warrior in full Chaos plate is probably not pleasant, it seems reasonable :p

I'd definitely say you get the W. As the rules don't say you remove the mount from the model's profile, nor do they say you don't use the W value as usual. Instead it specifies precisely what you do differently to usual: the mount doesn't attack and you don't get + to your AS. Everything else is as normal.
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DarkSchneider
Clanlord
please guys do not derail the topic into the same old rules debate :)
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Wulfrik
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The Chosen
DarkSchneider
Apr 21 2013, 05:14 PM
please guys do not derail the topic into the same old rules debate :)
Yes, I agree. It's all kind of pointless anyway, since this one can really be argued either way.

Besides, I think we can all agree that regardless of the amount of wounds, assaulting a building with Monstrous Infantry is an absolute waste of your time. :P
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