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| Best unit and Mark vs. HE's ? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 10 2013, 07:15 AM (546 Views) | |
| hasufin | Jun 10 2013, 07:15 AM Post #1 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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With HE's ASF , high initiative , and good charge ranges are Chaos' high armor saves , weapon skill and initiative enough to assure victory ? Are Chaos warriors with sword and shield with MoT best for 2 saves ? or Chosen with Halberds and MoN best for hardest to hit ? or Chaos Ogres with Great Weapons and MoK for lots of ST 6 hits ? Which Chaos army units match up best vs. HE's ? |
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| Tremendous | Jun 10 2013, 11:16 AM Post #2 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Any of them. With the exception of Slaanesh because that mark doesnt really come into play in CC. Khorne helps because it gives your front rank the extra attack needed to make up for any losses you take since they ASF and get to re-roll failed hits. Nurgle helps because most HE's will need a 5 to hit them but with their re-rolls, while it helps, they are still going to hit you alot. Tzeentch gives you the Ward save which is always a boon. 5+ parry if your unit has HW shield. Its our Warriors stat line that help us hold up against He's. Spearmen, Sea guard, Archers. They're all S3 so they need 5's to wound us in CC. Phoenix Guard need 4's and Sword masters need 3's instead of the usual 2's. Whitelions need 2's but , just like Swordmasters, they dont get to re-roll to hits. You want a good unit to take against HE's? Chariots. Run those bad boys into their bricks and your impact hits, even if you just roll average, will mow them down like grass. Gorebeast chariots are exceptionally good against HE's because their T6 makes it hard for even their bolt throwers to wound us! And at 110 - 140 points a chariot, You can afford to throw quite a few of both types into an army designed to face High Elves. Mark however you want, When its chariots into Elves Marks mean little. hope this helps! :) |
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| hasufin | Jun 10 2013, 12:58 PM Post #3 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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So you think chariots because of impact hits and high toughness so maybe MoK for the extra attacks ? Also if you are looking at impact hits then ogres would be good , give them MoK and GW . |
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| BELTRAJORDI | Jun 10 2013, 04:41 PM Post #4 |
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The Chosen
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Nurgle chariots ( both varieties) and trolls will ruin their day pretty well. You only have to take care of those pesky Phoenix frosties ( death snipping and hellcannons come to mind) as they seem to be made to counter our main strenghts. |
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| thughes0801 | Jun 11 2013, 09:06 AM Post #5 |
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The Chosen
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My question though truthfully what unit do u use if you prefer lore of metal and you don't run hellcannons due to point restrictions. Also, concerning banner of the world dragon with high elves does final transmutation bypass this or do they still get that f*$&#^/* 2++ ward save against that two |
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| hasufin | Jun 11 2013, 12:05 PM Post #6 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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So far we have anything that does impact hits - chariots , gorebeast chariots and chaos ogres , things with regeneration - Trolls , Festus , Lore of Nurgle fleshy abundance and things with Ward saves like MoT and shields, shooting like Hellcannons. The issue is HE's have ASF and high strength attacks, and reroll misses so Chaos armies need units that hit before CC - impact hits , has a second save other than armor like regeneration and ward saves. I would suggest dropping lore of metal as HE's have so many ways to counter spells. Use Lore of Nurgle with all the Augment/Hex spells since they can be used in CC , and can raise your casters (Sorcerer Lords / DP) W and T. So far here are the choices ... Warriors w/ shields & MoT , 2 saves 3+, 5+. Chariots w/ MoN* Horsemen w/ Javelins or Axe's & MoS Chaos Ogres w/ GW & MoK** Trolls Chosen w/ halberds & MoN Gorebeast Chariots MoN* Remember the BotWD is only vs. magic so any unit with normal weapons will do fine against them *Changed MoK to MoN on the Chariots because the percentage number of attacks reduced by MoN out weighs the finite number of additional attacks gained by large based models like Chariots where only a few models benefit in CC from the MoK. ** Chaos Ogres would benefit from the reduction of hits from MoN BUT because its a unit of multi wound & multiple models it has more resilience and would benefit more from the additional attacks, and MoK also makes a better synergistic affect with the Nurgle Lore spells. |
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| Asamu | Jun 11 2013, 02:13 PM Post #7 |
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The Chosen
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lores that are good: Shadow (Freaking amazing vs HE. Miasma can really screw them over, and reducing their strength can make white lions quite a bit less threatening, allowing you to whittle that unit down for a turn before they can really hurt you.) Death (Snipe out Phoenixes, Eagles, and Bolt throwers for relatively easy victory points, reduce strength/toughness, and Leadership bomb) Slaanesh (reduces movement, takes away re-rolls) Nurgle (low toughness makes the nurgle spells rather potent. Combo Curse of the Leper with the vortex and they die in droves. Not great vs the Banner of the World dragon though, as they still get ward saves) Tzeentch (Their units already have wardsaves for the most part, and with the low toughness, you are just as likely to get additional wounds. Giving them regen does nothing. The templates, low toughness of elves, and the ability to steal their spells, combined with the spells not being flaming makes it a great lore vs HE.) Metal is actually the worst lore you can take vs HE, as most of their units with high armor also have 2+ wards vs flaming, so the only reliably good spells are Transmutation of Lead, Enchanted Blades, and Final Transmutation. Units: Hortennse lord/BSB: The DP dies rather easily to the bolt throwers and has magical attacks, so the lord is a much safer option. In addition, the Lord/BSB will typically not have a magic weapon, as the mount deals magical attacks. Chariots (of any kind): MoN is the best. They are low toughness and strength, so reducing hits reduces wounds more than khorne might increase your own wounds. (FAQ says MoK does NOT apply to mounts) Warriors with HW/shield and MoN or MoTz (I prefer Nurgle, as it is better in combat: WL and Swordmasters. MoTz does have the benefit of a WS vs shooting, but if they are shooting at warriors, that should be a good thing for you.) Warhounds: Chaff. Nuff said. Horsemen are decent, but warhounds do the same for cheaper. Horsemen don't get the volume of shots you would want, and their BS is low. Chaos Ogres with GW: MoN is far and away the best choice on these units. Make sure to run them large enough to survive those initial elf attacks. Units of 9 3x3 would probably be ideal, as it minimizes their attacks on you, while maximizing your own in comparison. Trolls: Best unit in the game point for point when it comes to combat. Careful of the maiden guard flaming shooting. *Try to get them into combat as quickly as possible, as they will hold up against almost anything, but also try to avoid the fire Phoenix and maiden guard. If you know they like to run these units, don't put them into the list. Warshrines of Tzeentch: (3+ ward save and the large number of s4 attacks makes it pretty good at holding down almost anything, and buffing characters/champions is always beneficial.) Skullcrushers *cannot fight the unit with the Banner of the World Dragon Hellcannon: Strength 5 stonethrower vs T3 low armor save elves? Yes please. I recommend against MoK on anything other than skullcrushers. With the HE striking first, the extra damage you would do does not make up for the lack of defense, and Frenzy can suck if they park an eagle in front of the unit. The only time I would take MoK on warrior units vs HE is if I am running multiple shadow sorcs for miasma, which will allow you to strike first against white lions. |
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| BELTRAJORDI | Jun 11 2013, 04:03 PM Post #8 |
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The Chosen
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That's not entirely true as i've found that the units that would get rerrols vs khorne warriors aren't hitty enough while return damage from warriors cripples them pretty well. Same goes for SC' s. Remember that WL and SM strike at the same initiative as warriors, wich ends in both sides bloodbath. |
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| Flint13 | Jun 11 2013, 06:11 PM Post #9 |
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Predator of the Northern Wastes
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I have to agreed with Asamu here. The only things that would realistically be getting rerolls would be the spearmen/archer/seaguard, phoenix guard, or cavalry. The core elves just don't hit hard enough to be much of a threat to us. They are only hitting on 4's with a re-roll (*big* difference between that, and 3's with a re-roll) and wounding on 5's. Phoenix guard hit harder and more accurately, then we have to get through their ward save. I have yet to mathhammer it out, but I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be a good matchup for our warriors if they went in unaugmented. High elf players are typically equipping Phoenix guard with the razor standard as well, so we'd only be getting a 6+ armor save on halberd warriors. As for cavalry, it shouldn't be allowed to charge you in the first place. Silver helms don't really have the hitting power do do enough damage unless they are in a huge block, which is rare. Dragon princes can do a lot of damage though, which can definitely cause even big warrior blocks problems. As was mentioned before, a shadow caster is invaluable against the elves. A few key points here, to highlight the effectiveness of miasma. (comparing them to our core warriors) 1.) Drop a whitelion's weaponskill by 1 and they are hitting us on 4, and we hit them on 3's, which is a night/day difference. Without the re-rolls from ASF, this can swing a combat just by itsself. 2.) Drop a spearelf's WS by 2 and they are hitting warriors on a 5. Drop a spearelf's INI by 1, and they loose re-rolls against us. Coreelves aren't a huge threat against our core warriors, so if there is a more important combat, be sure to save the miasma for that. If not, however, it is never a bad idea to make sure you have a few more warriors left alive at the end of a combat turn. 3.) Drop a swordmaster's WS by 1, and they no longer hit us on 3's. Drop their INI by 2, and we go first. Typically swordmasters are run in smaller units as flankers. Going before them is huge b/c they typically don't have the number of bodies to absorb casualties before hitting back. Every dead swordmaster is two less potentially dead warriors. 4.) Remember that the de-buff from miasma effects EVERYthing in the unit, characters included. I can't elaborate how many challenges I've managed to ferret my way through with an exhalted b/c I've debuffed the unit that contained my opponent's character-killer lord. I will admit that being frenzy baited into an inconvienent location is always a possiblity, what army isn't this a problem with? Pretty much every race in Warhammer has a throwaway, chaffy unit that could do this. I think its a better idea to learn to deal with it than to not include frenzied units just because they might be baited. Then again, I am pretty biased towards khorne. Just remember, every dead elf is one less alive to hit back! ^_^ Edited by Flint13, Jun 11 2013, 06:13 PM.
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| ToughOne | Jun 11 2013, 07:00 PM Post #10 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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+1 Trolls rule againts HEs, (before our new book) I fielded Marauders to match the White Lions while the rest of my army chopped the rest of his to pieces... B) |
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| hasufin | Jun 12 2013, 07:00 AM Post #11 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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I disagree on the Chaos Ogres and MoN. The benefit of additional attacks from MoK will out weigh the reduction of hits from MoN. Keep in mind that since the Ogres are multi wound models the actual number attacking Ogers is less affected , while the increase in the number of hits from MoK would counter HE's hits with unit losses. In other words additional hits on Ogers doesn't fully translate in unit model losses but additional hits on HE from Ogres with GW would more likely result in a greater number of HE unit model losses. Also there is a better synergy with MoK and Lore of Nurgle. The Nurgle spell Fleshy Abundance can make your Chaos Ogres with GW like a nasty Chaos Troll unit and we all know how well Trolls do vs. HE's. Cast Miasma and/or Curse of the Leper and you've got a real HE killer unit. I would even consider an army with 2 units of Chaos Ogres , both with MoK , one with ADH the other GW vs. HE's. A Throgg army of Chaos Ogres , Trolls , Dragon Ogres , Festus and Nurgle Lore could be a real nightmare for an army like High Elves that can crumble when their opponent lives to strike back , repeatedly..! |
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| Asamu | Jun 12 2013, 10:30 AM Post #12 |
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The Chosen
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The issue with Khorne Ogres is that most High Elf units will wipe out a small unit, or deplete more moderately sized units by so much before you get to attack that the minus 1 to hit will actually give you more attacks. (This is true vs most armies, including other warriors) MoK synergizes well with LoN, but You can't run nurgle casters in khorne units, and frenzy makes it easy for them to pull your units out of position by forcing charges with eagles and killing warhounds with archers. Besides, lore of shadow is nearly as good vs High Elves. Again, Trolls are a good unit if they can get to combat without being overly depleted. If that is the case, they are the best unit in the game. The one issue is the amount of flaming shooting that HE have. With the Maiden guard and bolt throwers being relatively cheap, a good HE player will be able to shoot down most of the trolls before they can get into combat. Throgg is always good, and so is festus, but special characters are not always allowed. If they run a large unit of white lions with an annointed and lvl 4 high magic, there isn't much you can do with Warriors other than try to keep that unit away from your own and kill the rest of his army. In general, though Lore of Nurgle is good, it is not the best lore for warriors. Shadow, Death, and Slaanesh are more all-purpose lores, and have better synergy with our already strong units. Chaff clear, leadership nerfs, and mobility are more important tools for our magic than damage output and unit buffs. Lore of Nurgle may be the best vs High Elves in many situations, but it will not always be, and running Nurgle units will still be more effective overall due to the minimization of damage taken, and the signature spell is useless unless it is on a DP, as it cannot be used in combat. With the damage spells from nurgle allowing ward saves, (Annointed gives MR 2 and a 6+, and high magic raises this on every spellcast. Combined with the BoTWD, they can have 2 units nearly impervious to magic.) Lore of Shadow has arguably the best signature spell in the game, as it reduces enemy mobility, initiative, and WS, giving your units a significant advantage in combat and a greater ability to control the battle. Edited by Asamu, Jun 12 2013, 10:34 AM.
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| hasufin | Jun 12 2013, 12:48 PM Post #13 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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No one suggested taking small units vs. an army that has ASF. The goal is to do more damage to the units that your in CC with than it does to your units. The MoN only makes a small difference in the number of hits taken which is no more or less than the increase in the number of attacks that MoK provides. Simply put , a unit of chaos ogres with the MoK has a better chance than one with the MoN,of killing a HE unit. As for spells Nurgle augment and hex spells Leper , Blades and Miasma ignore HE's BotWD, additionally when using units with multiple wounds like Chaos Ogres regeneration spells like Nurgles Fleshy Abundance works exceptionally well , and the Nurgle Lore attribute make Nurgle a better lore than Shadow , who wouldn't want their DP or Sorcerer Lord with +1 or more W's and T's for free. |
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| Asamu | Jun 12 2013, 02:22 PM Post #14 |
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The Chosen
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It reduces hits by more than the boost in attacks that MoK provides, and it allows you to retain attacks... WL hit warriors on 4s, 5s with MoN, that is a 33.333% reduction in hits taken, or a 50% increase to hits taken, depending on which way you look at it. Vs Phoenix Guard: 3/4 attacks hit units with MoK, while 5/9 of attacks hit units with MoN. A 25.926% reduction to hits taken, or 35% increase to hits taken, depending on how it is looked at. Switching from MoK to MoN reduces attacks from 4 to 3 per file, which is only a 25% reduction to attacks, while the opposite is a 33.333% increase to attacks. In addition, the reduction to hits cannot be lost like the additional attacks, and it has no downside in forcing charges or overruns. Thus MoN is better. For Ogres: They will have higher hit rates, but due to the larger numbers of attacks coming from the second rank, MoK only increases their attacks by 16.667% or 14.286%, depending on whether they have AHws or GWs, while increasing hits (and wounds) taken by much more than that in comparison to MoN. (18.515% increase in hits/wounds taken vs units with re-rolls, and 33% vs units without re-rolls) The magic was beside the point. I was stating why Shadow was generally a better lore for warriors than Nurgle: mobility control and choice of target, and why it is hard to put in a list that is focused on Khorne units. Shadow casters can be put in khorne units. Nurgle casters can't. Regen doesn't mean anything against HE shooting, and they will shoot you. It will more often than not make a difference in combat, unless they put the flaming banner on a cav or spearmen unit. The Lore attribute makes minimal difference, and Death and Slaanesh are by far the best lores for a DP in an all-comers list. Nurgle just doesn't do enough vs so many armies. Nurgle's Lore attribute is great, but it doesn't come into play enough. The Shadow attribute can be very good if you have an extra character on foot for some reason, or to save your BSB from having to fight in combat. Even in the worst case scenarios, MoN is still better than MoK according to the math. Edited by Asamu, Jun 12 2013, 02:23 PM.
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| Vermillion | Jun 12 2013, 02:22 PM Post #15 |
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Exalted Guardian
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The amount of flaming attacks HE can potentially put out however is something to remember when looking at trolls. The rares seem to like them (fire pheonix and the sisters being the two biggest offenders) and the dragon mage has been getting some decent press apparently as flaming sword is always one of his spells. Though I've always beena fan of chariots they do really, really shine against HE for impact hits B) Halberd warriors ofcourse are still awesome too :wub: . Marks I would probably go with Nurgle as less hits from SM and WL is a godsend the way I roll dice for saves, and well, anything else! For lore choices death for sniping isn't too bad, doom and darkness for the high Ld and soulblight for dropping the S of incoming attacks. Shadow for the excellent hexes which counter a lot of the HE strengths against WoC Even fire as those fireballs can start blowing MSU HE up badly :rock: |
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4:23 PM Jul 11