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Best unit and Mark vs. HE's ?
Topic Started: Jun 10 2013, 07:15 AM (547 Views)
hasufin
Warrior of the Chamber
Asamu
Jun 12 2013, 02:22 PM
hasufin
Jun 12 2013, 12:48 PM
No one suggested taking small units vs. an army that has ASF. The goal is to do more damage to the units that your in CC with than it does to your units. The MoN only makes a small difference in the number of hits taken which is no more or less than the increase in the number of attacks that MoK provides. Simply put , a unit of chaos ogres with the MoK has a better chance than one with the MoN,of killing a HE unit. As for spells Nurgle augment and hex spells Leper , Blades and Miasma ignore HE's BotWD, additionally when using units with multiple wounds like Chaos Ogres regeneration spells like Nurgles Fleshy Abundance works exceptionally well , and the Nurgle Lore attribute make Nurgle a better lore than Shadow , who wouldn't want their DP or Sorcerer Lord with +1 or more W's and T's for free.

It reduces hits by more than the boost in attacks that MoK provides, and it allows you to retain attacks...

Switching from MoK to MoN reduces attacks from 4 to 3 per file, which is only a 25% reduction to attacks, while the opposite is a 33.333% increase to attacks.
In addition, the reduction to hits cannot be lost like the additional attacks, and it has no downside in forcing charges or overruns. Thus MoN is better.

For Ogres: They will have higher hit rates, but due to the larger numbers of attacks coming from the second rank, MoK only increases their attacks by 16.667% or 14.286%, depending on whether they have AHws or GWs, while increasing hits (and wounds) taken by much more than that in comparison to MoN. (18.515% increase in hits/wounds taken vs units with re-rolls, and 33% vs units without re-rolls)

The magic was beside the point. I was stating why Shadow was generally a better lore for warriors than Nurgle: mobility control and choice of target, and why it is hard to put in a list that is focused on Khorne units. Shadow casters can be put in khorne units. Nurgle casters can't.

Regen doesn't mean anything against HE shooting, and they will shoot you. It will more often than not make a difference in combat, unless they put the flaming banner on a cav or spearmen unit.

Nurgle's Lore attribute is great, but it doesn't come into play enough. The Shadow attribute can be very good if you have an extra character on foot for some reason, or to save your BSB from having to fight in combat.

Even in the worst case scenarios, MoN is still better than MoK according to the math.
If you like MoN even though its an inferior buff for Chaos Ogres compared to MoK then you are free to make a bad choice.

Let me point out though your explanations are flawed.
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Switching from MoK to MoN reduces attacks from 4 to 3 per file, which is only a 25% reduction to attacks..
I think what you meant to say is that MoK would be an INCREASE of 25% to attacks , those of us that prefer winning will take the 25% increase in attacks.

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Regen doesn't mean anything against HE shooting..
It made a difference this weekend when my unit of warriors w/ 5+ regen shrugged off 6 bolt thrower shots with no losses, so all I can say is speak for your self.

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Nurgle's Lore attribute is great, but it doesn't come into play enough.
Seriously , who wouldn't want their DP with additional wounds and increased toughness. In the same battle this past weekend my Nurgle Sorcerer Lord was able to kill a HE noble on a griffon because he had +2 toughness and wounds from the Nurgle attribute , my opponent thought it was a great attribute coming into play every round of combat, give the same character the Chaos Power Soul Feeder and you have a near unstoppable character.


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Even in the worst case scenarios, MoN is still better than MoK according to the math.
No not at all. The reduction in hits from MoN is less than the hits gained from MoK. That small difference in hits w/o MoN are then subject to more reductions from ST vs. T rolls and AS's, you also lose the increased hits and kills that the MoK provides so by the end of CC with the MoN instead of the MoK you would actually have a lower combat resolution score , now that is the REAL math hammer.
On the other hand given the specific use of Chaos Ogres with GW and MoK against most any HE unit the additional hits translate into HE unit kills. MoK's Extra attacks and IMP along with the spells from Nurgle Lore and you have the best of everything for your Chaos Ogres.











Edited by hasufin, Jun 14 2013, 01:32 AM.
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hasufin
Warrior of the Chamber
So to bring this thread back on topic the choices we have so far are ...


Warriors/Chosen w/ shields & MoT -benefits are 2 saves 3+, 5+, Chosen getting added chaos reward.

Warriors/Chosen w/ Halberds & MoN -benefits are reduced hits & high ST 5 attacks , Chosen getting added chaos reward

Chariots w/ MoN -benefits are high T , high ST attacks, and reduced number of hits taken.

Horsemen w/ Javelins or Axe's & MoS -benefits are shooting at ST 3 or 4 vs. T 3 HE's and there is no ASF.

Chaos Ogres w/ GW & MoK benefits are impact hits, survivability and lots of high ST 6 attacks

Trolls -benefits are survivability w/ regeneration and lots of high ST 5 attacks

Gorebeast Chariots MoN -benefits are impact hits and high T and high ST and reduced number of hits taken


The units and their marks are all good choices but if you prefer to use other marks that better suit your playstyle feel free to do so. The idea is to look at units that can deal damage first like with impact hits or can hit simultaneously or that can still get a good return strike back. Remember that Chaos units with initiative 5 can strike at the same time against HE with ASL weapons and initiative 5 with no HE's re-rolls either.

As far as to which Lore to use I would suggest Nurgle or just go with what you like best. My experience has been that Nurgle Lore works well with the above units and well against armies with low T and ASF. All 3 of the Nurgle damaging spells require toughness test so almost the entire HE army is threatened by a successful cast and this has 2 affects , 1 - it makes your HE opponent spend his dispel dice early setting him up with no dispels later , 2 - it kills HE units , the 1 Nurgle spell Rancid Visitations can destroy an entire high elf unit, Stream of Corruption and Plague Wind are just as deadly vs. low T 3 HE's. The other 4 Nurgle spells will ruin a HE's battle plan reducing his WS and IN (reducing his hits and rerolls) , increasing your units toughness or reducing his to 1 , gaining a second 5+ regeneration save , and adding an additional -1 AS penalty , all these spells can be cast in CC too.

Lastly consider using the special character Festus. If you agree with most of the above then adding Festus to one of your units makes good sense giving a unit regeneration and poison attacks and getting 2 Nurgle spells.
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