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Slaanesh vs. The Empire!; Or how not to hold the line
Topic Started: Jun 12 2013, 10:05 PM (355 Views)
Flint13
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Predator of the Northern Wastes
Morning guys!

A quick rules query that cropped up in a game I had this past weekend vs an empire player.

The Set Up:
An empire commander (a general I believe) and his large block of halberds are charged in the rear by my Slaaneshi Sorc lord and hellstriders while two khorne chariots charge the front of the horde. This unit is massive, something like 60 models. In the magic phase, I hit the unit with a bubble choir (that doesn't miscast! *Whew*), which also deletes his celestial hurricanum parked nearby (double *whew*). I follow this up with phantasmagoria with my last 3 magic dice. Combat ensues, my sorc lord challenges, unit champ accepts, rolls are fluffed hilariously by both parties. I win combat by 3. He has more ranks than I do, so is steadfast, so tests on his general's LD, with a BSB re-roll. He then informs me that a commander of the empire basically has a Lizardman's cold blooded rule (3d6 and pick the lowest for LD). I then inform him phantasmagoria adds an additional D6 to any LD test and makes you pick the highest... He ended up failing pretty spectacularly on 4D6, even with LD9, which cost him the game when I ran down that massive unit.

Did we play this correctly? I can see this cropping up more often with lizardmen, but I honestly hadn't thought of this match-up before. The wording of Phantasmagoria just says "roll an additional D6 whenever it [the effected unit] takes a leadership test." While that seems correct, RAW, it feels a bit odd to think that a normally super stubborn cold-blooded unit is doubly susceptible to Slaaneshi lore. Does this mean that Slicing Shards/Phantasmagoria would be the absolute business against Lizards?

Thanks in advance!
Edited by Flint13, Jun 12 2013, 10:07 PM.
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Kaedron
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The Chosen
Lizardmen FAQ
 
Q: When a unit with the Cold Blooded special rule is required to add or subtract additional dice for a Leadership test, how does it work?(p41)
A:Take the test on however many dice it would normally be taken plus the extra dice from the Cold Blooded special rule and remove the highest. For example if a normal unit would take the test on 3D6 and add them together a Cold Blooded unit would roll 4D6, take away the highest and then add the remaining 3 dice together.

Assuming Hold the Line works the same way as Cold Blooded (and I see no reason why it should not), there you go. Certainly makes a lot more sense than Hold the Line becoming a disadvantage :)

Edit: It wouldn't work for Slicing Shards anyway, Hold the Line only effects break tests.
Edited by Kaedron, Jun 12 2013, 10:22 PM.
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Flint13
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Predator of the Northern Wastes
That still causes a bit of a problem though. To me, that math works out:

2d6 normal + 1d6 from phantasmagoria (the "however many dice it would normally be taken") +1d6 from cold blooded = 4d6

Phantasmagoria makes you pick the highest of the dice (specifically "roll an additional dice," just like Cold-blooded) Hold the Line says, and I quote

"When a character with this special rule is in a unit, the unit rolls 3d6 for any break test it is required to take, and uses the two lowest scores."

For phantasmagoria you "must roll an additional D6 whenever it takes a leadership test, discarding the lowest results rolled." It seems like a question of what comes into effect first, Coldblooded/Hold the Line, or Phantasmagoria. Is this one of those "the player who's turn it is" decides sort of things?
Edited by Flint13, Jun 12 2013, 10:37 PM.
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Kaedron
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The Chosen
Argh, sorry, I thought phantasmagoria just added a dice.

This is how I assume it works:
You roll 4d6. Then, cold blooded removes the highest. Then, phantasmagoria removes the lowest (the order of these removals is probably decided by the player who's turn it is. Not that it's of any consequence). The remaining 2 dice are the result of the break test.
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MyNameDidntFit
The Dark Prince
Interesting. Hold the Line states you use the lowest 2 dice. I'd say this would be best served by a roll-off to see which applies first.
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Flint13
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Predator of the Northern Wastes
Yeah, that's where the biggest problem lies for me. The way we played it:

1.)Unit needs a leadership check for a break test = LD9, 2d6
2.)Empire general makes them take that test on 3d6, discarding the highest = LD9, 3d6 - highest d6.
3.)Phantasmagoria goes into effect, which adds a d6 to what is normally taken. In this case making it 4d6. The spell then causes them to discard the lowest results.

It seems this is the RAW case, even though it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
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DarkSchneider
Clanlord
I'd say that what matters here is what rule comes into play first. Probably the player in turn decides. If that's the case, then roll 4d6, then you apply Phantasmagoria and chose the 3 highest dice, then the opponent discards the highest one.
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Flint13
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Predator of the Northern Wastes
Haha, that's kinda wonky, but seems to make more sense than anything else so far.
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Wulfrik
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The Chosen
You're making this a bit more complicated then it needs to be. Both Cold Blood and Hold The Line! say the same basic thing: roll 3D6, keep the two lowest results. Neither says anything about getting rid of the highest die. I'll even quote them both here:
Cold Blooded
 
For all Leadership tests, models with the Cold Blooded special rule roll 3 dice and use the lowest two scores.
Hold The Line!
 
While a character with this special rule is in a unit, the unit rolls 3D6 for any Break test it is required to take, and uses the lowest two scores.
With Phantasmagoria, you add 1D6 to the roll, and discard the lowest. Then, you're left with 3 dice, and the Empire or Lizardman player uses the two lowest of those 3 remaining D6's. Simple, really.
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