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2999 Tournament; First Tournament ever
Topic Started: Dec 5 2013, 06:54 AM (388 Views)
sam585
Warrior of the Chamber
Here is my current list which comes out to exactly 2999, the tournament shall have about 30 participants.

Chaos Lord general
Filth Mace, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of +5 Ward, Crown of Command, M.O.N, Soul Sucker

lvl 2 Sorcerer M.O.N, Lvl 2, Dispel Scroll

Lvl 2 Sorcerer M.O.N, Lvl 2, Familliar

BSB, M.O.N, C.Shield, Scaley Skin, Fencers Blades

23 Nurgle Warriors, Banner, Musician, Flaming Banner

35 Nurgle Marauders, Gws, Banner, Musician

5 Nurgle Chaos Knights, Musician

5 Nurgle Chaos Knights, Musician

6 Nurgle Chaos Ogres, FCMD, Gws

1 Nurgle Gorebeast

1 Hellcannon

6 Hounds

5 Hounds

What serious flaws do you guys see with this army? Thank you for your time in reviewing it.
Edited by sam585, Dec 5 2013, 06:55 AM.
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RasputinIII
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The Chosen
I think your list is very soft for a tournament. Although I guess it still depends on what tournament your attending, what the comp is, who's going etc....

Theres lots of things to think about when you're going to a tournament, but heres some "questions" your list really needs to be able to answer....

1) Can you deal with strong magic, death magic or the covern of light
2) Can you deal with Deamon Princes and the WOC netlist? Ogre gutstar, VC BK bus etc...
3) Can you deal with lots of enemy warmachines
4) Can you deal with Chaff?
5) Can you deal with strong flyers (Greater deamons, Frost Birds, DPs, Terrorghiests etc...)
6) Can you deal with Etherals
7) Have you got leadership issues?
8) Can you deal with huge tarpits / hordes

If you have answers these questions (and maybe more, I'm real hungover today) then you will be on the front foot when you get in to your games, if you don't have counters to these things then your going to struggle all the time, because all these things are common.

I think your list kind of just "grinds forward and smashes" with a bit of chaff. And I think that is weak against the current meta and tournament builds.

Rather than just have a go, and suggest huge changes, I think you'd be better thinking how if you played your list you'd deal with these things, and then reviewing those answers to work out what changes you need to be to be more effective.
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sam585
Warrior of the Chamber
Here is a look at the comp

http://www.greatescapegames.com/contest-of-champions-2010/warhammer-fantasy-coc-comp/#/vanilla/discussion/embed/?vanilla_discussion_id=0

I re-fiddled my list, by basically removing all the marks of nurgle (save 3) switching the double nurgle sorcerers for one lvl 4 nurgle sorcerer. Im still wondering if having another lvl 2 Wizard would be beneficial.

The only thing I am concerned about is GDs and DPs because my army is for the most part str5, which is good for just about everything except really tough things.

Enemy shooting I feel comes down to just how much shooting my opponet brings and luck.

General strategy is just get into combat as fast as possible with my marauders and Warriors using the Ogres/Knights/Gorebeast as support. The hellcannon is there to shoot at whatever is the biggest threat.

I chose lore of Nurgle for the buffs+debuffs
The Chaos lord is equipped mainly to take care of other Characters and Ogre like monsters with the multi-wound weapon, perhaps poison can win me a few fights versus extremely powerful foes such as DPs and GDs (which I feel will give me the most problems).

Additionally, how else could i Play W.O.C besides just "grind forward"?

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Nongor
The Chosen
WoC have several playstyle options open to them other than run forward and out grind your opponent. For example there is the all mounted cav/MC list with lots of Marauder Horsemen, Warhounds, Hellstriders and Skullcrushers. Combine with mounted or flying characters and you have an army that can be on your opponent in 2 turns. This is especially powerful if you can stack one flank, smash one side of your opponent's army and then double back for more.

Then there's also the flying circus style with DP or Tzeentch lord on disc, Tzeentch Exalteds on discs, and 2 x Chimeras. Rounds out with hounds, chariots and horsemen for core.

A third option would be the heavy shooting/magic build with 2 or 3 Hellcannons, horsemen with throwing axes and as many magic missile wielding sorcerers you can take. As your opponent is then forced to come to you counterattack with fire breathing DP and Chimeras and you can simply burn or blow apart your opponents troops.

There are other subtler armies that will compete across all phases but its good our army can switch it up if needed.

As for your list a level 4 is much better than 2 x level 2. If you want to run a level 4 and a level 2 this will be even better, expecially at 3,000 points. I'd also like to see a ward save on the BSB and a 4+ ward on your general. I'm not sold on the Marauders with GW and the mark of Nurgle. If they had the mark of Khorne maybe, or even Slaanesh, but Nurgle doesn't add a lot to the unit. Comrade RasputinIII has raised some very good points about what you will likely face at a tournament and I'd definitely look at restructuring your current list whilst keeping the backbone intact.
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RasputinIII
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The Chosen
sam585
Dec 5 2013, 11:09 AM
General strategy is just get into combat as fast as possible with my marauders and Warriors using the Ogres/Knights/Gorebeast as support. The hellcannon is there to shoot at whatever is the biggest threat.

Additionally, how else could i Play W.O.C besides just "grind forward"?

So here is the problem. Your army is built solely to get into combat, and grind one on one, where the strength of your stats and equipment will outshine your enemy and win.

The problem is there is no reason for the enemy to play that game, and your list doesn't force the enemy to engage. If you think about armies that effective use infantry en masse (other than skaven) they all do something else. They bring the enemy to them, through shooting - so when the enemy arrives hes is so depleted that the blocks win (Empire / Orcs / High Elves) all do this.

You have one hell cannon and a bunch of tough infantry. Which means you are going to be crossing the board every game to get your fights. Your not going to see combat until turn 3 in 90% of your games. Maybe T4 in some others. In those first turns what damage will you have caused? Maybe 2-3 hits from the cannon. But thats it really. Nurgles a great lore, but it doesn't have a lot of spells to worry about before T.3, so you shouldn't expect to be getting the vortex off.

By contrast your opponent might be able to do a tonne of damage. If you think about an Empire Coven of Light, a HE non cavalry army or a 0&G gun line. 3 turns of magic and shooting is going to wreck your combat blocks, and then you'll loose one on one fights, and won't have the resources to multi charge.

Typically WoC armies don't grind forward. They hurtle forward, putting massive pressure on the enemy in T1 and are in combat, winning combats turn 2. A good phrase to bear in mind with WoC is "I'm loosing until I get in to combat".

Whilst I'm not advocating you go for the netlist, but if you think about an army that consists of:
lvl 4 Death DP of Nurgle
Unkillable BSB
Chimera(s)
Skull Crushers
Chariots
Its fast, it shoots/magics you to death and then it hits like a tonne of bricks. It can outfight anything, and its tough and fast enough to get there intact.

All infantry is cool, but its not strong unless its supported by a tonne of ranged threat (think skaven) that makes the enemy want to get in to combat fast. Again your list there is no need to do that. And because of that I think you will struggle.
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sam585
Warrior of the Chamber
Thank you for the comments and advice. Here is the new and revised list. Please note I do not have access to another Hell Cannon, nor skullcrushers, this army is modeled and themed for nurgle so any discs or the like are also not available to me.

The army comes out to 2997 points.

Demon Prince. lvl 4 Death Wizard, 2+ Save, Charmed Shield, Soul Sucker, Poisoned Slime, Flys, Chaos Armor, Sword of Battle

BSB +4 Wardsave, Enchanted shield

Sorcerer, lvl 2 (undecided Lore), Dispel Scroll

21 chaos Warriors Halberds
35 Marauders G.Ws
5 Dogs
5 Dogs

Chimera
6 Chaos Ogres
6 Chaos Knights
1 Gorebeast

Hell Cannon
Giant
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Jofarin
Clanlord
You switched the general, lvl2 and one unit of knights for a DP, chimera and a giant? I kinda fail to see how this adresses the mentioned problems. Your core will be either late or your army will be shot/cast to a shadow of its former glory.
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RasputinIII
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The Chosen
It looks to me like you've read my comments and just thrown some stuff in. Its great that you are keen to improve the list, but I think you need to sit down and put a bit more thought into the synergies and how you play and how you want to play. How you want your army to play out on the battle field. This list looks a little disjointed.

As a caveat, I don't like Warriors, and I don't like marauders 90% of the time (although the list I am working towards has 29). So whilst I absolutely believe there is a way of making an infantry based list work, I'm not the person to give you those tips. I value speed and board control above most things. That said I'm gonna run through your list, and lets see if we can be real constructive.

Demon Prince. lvl 4 Death Wizard, 2+ Save, Charmed Shield, Soul Sucker, Poisoned Slime, Flys, Chaos Armor, Sword of Battle
You can't use poison and magic weapon. The normal build for this guy is: Chaos Armour, Charmed Shield, Scaly Skin, Soul Feeder, Chaos Familiar, Dragonbane Gem, sword of striking (or the other tricksters shard) and ususaly flaming breath. I would definately advise changing the magic items on your to improve his protection.

BSB +4 Wardsave, Enchanted shield
Unmarked? Surely nurgle?

Sorcerer, lvl 2 (undecided Lore), Dispel Scroll

21 chaos Warriors Halberds
Surely MoN and command? Also, this unit really needs the banner of swiftness to keep up
35 Marauders G.Ws
I don't know what they bring to the list to be honest.
5 Dogs
5 Dogs

Chimera
Needs to at least have regen, flaming breath is badass too
6 Chaos Ogres
ususally considered inferior to Trolls, but Ogres are okay. Are they marked? I'd like them to have a banner really
6 Chaos Knights
mark? command? weapons? banner?
1 Gorebeast
these are real good, but again, mark?

Hell Cannon
Giant
giants are not good. the die very easily and they are too random to be reliable at killing anything. The shaggoth is much better at a similar value.


Rather than go on, maybe you could tell us how you plan to use the above list? I don't see the army coming together as a whole, I see it being split in to two or three. But I'd be keen to read how you intend to use it. Maybe we can then go from there and make some tweak to improve the synergy and competitiveness.

Edited by RasputinIII, Dec 5 2013, 05:39 PM.
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sam585
Warrior of the Chamber
Im going to go in tomorrow to play some pick up games to see what the people like to run and reserve judgment on my list until i see what people are running.

Basing the comp scores of the top 3 W.O.C winners from last tournament I know they ran armies without DPs, Hellcannons, Chimeras with regen/flame breath and a max of only one unit of Skull Krushers, or 3+ wardsaves/ rerollable wardsaves, and a max of only 300 points of magic items.

That is not to say that they did not show up with a large amount of chariots, fast calv, or other things; however, they did not run with the standard lists or any of the lists which you fellows have suggested which leads me to believe that this tournament is a more friendly setting. Then again the top 3 winners could just be amazing generals and could lead an all skaven slave army to victory, i do not know.




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RasputinIII
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The Chosen
Okay. But I strongly recommend you think about how your list is going to work, or how you want to play.
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daynewma
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Warrior of the Chamber
The comp doesn't appear to tack the standard list unreasonably hard.

If you're trying to get a good comp score (limiting nurgle)


  • Don't take it on the sorceror. Take metal or shadow, leave him unmarked. L2 if you wish, but don't forget your comp hits you for lots of character points too. If you don't mind being scroll-less, Festus would work too.
  • BSB needs more info. Foot, mounted, what?
  • If you have chariots, take them because they aren't comped by themselves. Make them Khorne, or slaanesh.
  • Because GW marauders are really bad, if you have to, deathstar the warriors up. Take Really anything but them. See how you feel about them being unit filler, dispersed within the warriors. Or how others would feel. Also, put shields on the warriors.
  • Change the DP to standard list. There's really nothing to fix with that.
  • Chaos Ogres- Make them the third Nurgle (warriors, DP, Chaos Ogres). You can panic b/c not ItP, but if you get in combat, you will lose less attacks. Give them GW and full command for blood and glory.
  • Don't know what their problem with Hellcannon is. Too bad about skullcrushers. But better to get more warriors or knights or something than a giant.
  • -2 in special > core is a tax you'll probably want to pay. Again, you may be able to avoid with giant points -> core.
  • you're not comped for a 3+ ward save without the 3rd eye. So maybe take BSB like that.
  • Khorne knights have really good damage output. Either Khorne or Slaanesh, but one of those because the first successful or IF lore-metal-missile is going to hurt, and you don't want to panic because you lost two. Even one can kill a WM crew.


BTW All skaven slave could be hard. Can you imagine? Just killing tons of skaven slaves, his grey seer casts plague/dreaded 13th a couple times. You lose b/c slaves are that cheap.
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sam585
Warrior of the Chamber
291 Bubonicus
Wargear:
Talisman of Endurance
Other Tricksters Shard
Flame Helm
Flail
Gifts:
Scaley Skin
Flamebreath

335 Azgolag
Lvl 4 Lore of Nurgle
Wargear:
Shield of one Hit Discard
Dispell Scroll
M.O.N
Gifts:
Chaos Familiar
_________________________________________
160 Valivartas
Wargear:
Talisman of Preservation +4 Wardsave
Enchanted Shield

126 Herodicus The Rust Father
Lvl1 Sorcerer
Barded Chaos Steed
Lore of Metal
__________________________________________
498- Valivartas Legionaries
26 Chaos Warriors
FCMD
Shields+Halberds


360- The Blighted Host
M.O.N
Shields+Handweapons
Banner+Musician


110- Chariot No Mark
110- Chariot No MArk

30- Dogs
30- Dogs
30- Dogs
_____
290- 6 Nurgle Ogres
M.O.N
Banner+Musician
Greatweapons

230- Chimera

130- Gorebeast Chariot

268- 6 Knights No Mark
Musician
Ensorcelled Weapons


Points: 2998
Comp: 30/30 (I think)


After discussing with the other players at the tournament, I decided that I shall not run a DP. Reason being is that my opponets are going to bring alot of cannons and I feel that it is too much of a risk, aswell as an issue of flexability with just running a DP also the comp hit is too great.

The General and BSB along with the Halberd warriors should obliterate anything it gets into contact with. Dogs chaff and screen. The Chimera depending on how shooty the list is shall either sit back and serve as a support to my other units or go downfield as fast as possible to threaten my opponets back lines same goes with the chariots. The Wizard in the Knights shall search for the most threatening high armor save target around and begin melting them, and the Wizard Lord shall COTL and Rancid Visitation combo other high threat targets or push out support when needed. Other than that, I will focus on out manuevering and hopefully not get bad luck.

I am undecided on keeping the Halberd Warrior Block big, or splitting it up. Thoughts?
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RasputinIII
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The Chosen
The obvious thought to throw out there is you've gone a bit to broad and shallow with the units. You've not spent points on upgrades that are important. Regen on the chimera is mandatory, marks on your troops. Magic banner on your warrior block etc. also you don't seem to have a BSB.

I would look at dropping some bodies to free up points for upgrades.
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sam585
Warrior of the Chamber
316 Bubonicus- My General, and my character killer. Depending on the situation I shall use either my BSB to challenge unit champions, or my General to challenge any enemy character that has the slightest sense of being combat oriented.

Wargear:
Talisman of Preservation
Other Tricksters Shard
Flame Helm
Flail
Mark of Nurgle
Gifts:
Scaley Skin
Flamebreath

310 Azgolag- Provides support and additionally can cause serious damage on a unit with the -d3 hex and rancid visitation combo.
Lvl 4 Lore of Nurgle
Wargear:
Shield of one Hit Discard
M.O.N
Gifts:
Chaos Familiar
_________________________________________
180 Valivartas BSB
Mark Of Nurgle
Wargear:
Talisman of Endurance
Enchanted Shield

151 Herodicus The Rust Father- Main priority is to deal with High AS opponents that my mainly str5 army cannot cope with.
Lvl1 Sorcerer
Barded Chaos Steed
Lore of Metal
Dispell Scroll
__________________________________________
415- Valivartas Legionaries- Center with Bubonics and Valivartas
19 Chaos Warriors
Banner+Musc
Banner of Swiftness
Mark of Nurgle
Shields+Halberds


360- The Blighted Host- Center with Azgolag
20 Chaos Warriors
M.O.N
Shields+Handweapons
Banner+Musician


110- Chariot-- Chariots deploy as a team on a far flank

125- Chariot M.O.N

30- Dogs}
30- Dogs} Chaff masters
30- Dogs}
_____
290- 6 Nurgle Ogres- deploys to flank
M.O.N
Banner+Musician
Greatweapons

235- 5 Chaos Knights- Rearguard of my army
M.O.N
Ensorcelled Weapons
Banner

140- Gorebeast Chariot- Deploys to flank
Mark of Nurgle

268- 6 Knights No Mark -Bodyguard for the lvl1 Metal Wizard
Musician
Ensorcelled Weapons


Points: 2995/2999
Comp: 24/30
11 Troop drops


Thank you for notifying me about my BSB Rasputinill I could not figure out why my list had so many extra points near the end.

For the marks I feel that I am obligated to go M.O.N due to the confusion that can be caused if they are say Khorne (which is not comped) due to the fact that the modeling and paint scheme is 100% Nurgle. Though I believe the captain of the league will talk to the tournament organizer to remove the penalty for taking M.O.N or I hope he will.

As it looks, I might be able to balance out the M.O.N comp penalty even if it is not removed with the paint job/ theme/ and display board for my force which shall also be calculated in determining the winner for the tournament.

Edited by sam585, Dec 10 2013, 08:52 AM.
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sam585
Warrior of the Chamber
Well, I have completed my firs tournament ever and it went extremely well. It consisted of three rounds with objectives for each round which heavily added to VP.

First battle was against Bretts for controlling 4 Warpstone counters in 4 different sections of the board, the game lasted eight turns. This battle came out to a draw mainly for the situation that my army contested one half of the battlefield, where his knight busses contested the other, and no matter what were always within range of controlling a counter. score: Me-6 him-5.

Second Battle was against a demon player and we were playing battle for the pass. This battle frustrated me immensely. Mainly for the issue that I could not finish my turn 6. At the start of turn 6, the battlefield and close combats were so heavily swayed to my favor that it would of resulted in a solid victory. The score for VP came out to about me-960ish she-860ish.

Third Battle was against another WOC army, his main two main blocks were Nurgle, 1 chairiot, 1 Gorebeast chairot, Hortense exalted on disc, 5 skullcrushers, 6 trolls, and then chaff. He formed up his army basically with all his eggs in one basket (sorcerer lord, general, and a sorcerer all in a Nurgle block with stubborn). I layed my army with an extremely strong center dropping a unit of 22 warriors, 20 warriors, and 3 skullcrushers in the center, with my chariots, ogres, lvl1s, and dogs to the sides. Though this was certainly not the best plan, I was extremely tired at this point and just wanted to get the battle underway and finished as soon as possible. In the battle, his skullcrushers spent the entire game trapped in the left field killing worthless units, where his hortense and other chariot, rolled my other flank. In the center, my skullcrushers heldout against a flank charge of 6 trolls, with devastating charge (they got it from bugmans brew) which then finally allowed for my general and block of 22 warriors to begin the battle in earnest (they were heavily hexed up to this point as well). On the charge they completely wiped out the trolls, then once that was done and over with his Generals unit charged mine, with his hortense in the flank. This battle lasted for the rest of his turn 6, where he was down to 2 RnF and his general, and I had a unit of Skullcrushers poised to flank his generals unit, which would have wiped them out, securing me another solid victory if I would of been able to play my turn 6.my VP-900ish to his VP-800ish.

Here is the final list I took to battle with (I will leave point values out, i am too lazy to calculate-- it came out to 2996)

Chaos Lord
Armed with: Flail, Chaos Armor, Helm of many eyes, O.T.S, Talisman of Preservation.
Marked with: Nurgle
Chaos gifts: Flame Breath, Scaley Skin

This guy turned out to be a total beast, never sustaining a wound and causing serious amounts of destruction himself. He killed a Soulgrinder practically on his own, and butchered RnF like it was his job (because it was :rock: ).

Chaos Sorcerer Lord lvl4 (spell lore: Nurgle)
Armed with: Hand weapon, Charmed Shield, Chaos Armor
Marked with: Nurgle
Chaos gifts: Spell Familiar

Lore of nurgle turned out to be game changing every battle mainly with curse of the leper. Additionally with the low casting values of the spells, I was capable of usually always getting at least one of them off due to forcing my opponent to spend his/her dice on dispelling searing doom.

Exalted Hero (BSB)
Armed with: Hand weapon, Enchanted Shield, Chaos Armor
Marked with: Nurgle
No gifts-

Chaos Sorcerer lvl 1 metal
Armed with: Hand Weapon, Barded Chaos Mount, and Dispel Scroll
no mark-
no gifts-

Chaos Sorcerer lvl 1 Death
Armed with: Hand Weapon, Barded Chaos Mount, and Power Stone
no mark-
no gifts-

Where the metal wizard turned out to be amazing, my death wizard was a waste. This was mainly due to deployment, the armies I was playing, and bad rolling. I will most likely replace him for more trolls.

22 Chaos Warriors (FCMD)
Armed with: Halberds, Shields, Chaos Armor
Chaos mark- Nurgle
Magic Standard- Swiftness

19 Chaos Warriors (FCMD)
Armed with: Hand Weapons, Shields, Chaos Armor
Chaos mark- Nurgle

5 dogs
5 dogs
5 dogs

2 unmarked chariots- These were very effective throughout the entire tournament.

1 Nurgle Gorebeast chariot

6 Chaos Ogres (Banner+Musician)
Armed with: Greatweapons and Heavy armor
Marked with: Nurgle

These guys I am now convinced, are completeley useless and a waste of space. They always died before they could fight back and never killed anything for all 3 games. I shall be replacing them for hopefully a block of 8 trolls.

and lastly 3 Skullcrushers.

Overall I was very pleased with my armies performance, but felt that 6 turns is way too little to complete a 3000 point battle. But I can live with 3 draws against more experinced and competitive opponets.
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