|
The Problem
|
|
Topic Started: Dec 27 2007, 08:16 PM (214 Views)
|
Berethorn
|
Dec 27 2007, 08:16 PM
Post #1
|
Mister B-man
- Posts:
- 2,070
- Group:
- Liverpool
- Member
- #21
- Joined:
- July 23, 2007
|
- Quote:
-
A win may well be a win, but some are undoubtedly better than others, and this last-gasp victory over one of the worst teams ever to "grace" the Premiership was as bad as they come.
It would be easy to hide behind the old adage that one of the signs of a good team is an ability to grab all three points when performance levels are worthy of far less. But surely the sign of a really good team is an ability to put a side as limited as Derby to the sword with the minimum of fuss?
It is all well and good congratulating Gerrard and celebrating with the captain when he scores a last minute winner. But maybe it would be better if one or two players took a look at themselves and asked "if he's doing it, why aren't I?"
As the season wears on Liverpool are increasingly having to rely on the usual suspects and, being world class performers, Gerrard and Torres almost always deliver when it is most needed, as evidenced by the fact that the pair have now scored more than half of the Reds’ league goals so far this season.
This came from the Echo match report today, and it pretty much sums up the point I was trying to make yesterday - far better in fact. I heard it summed up pretty well a few weeks ago. Our team of a decade or so ago was, imo, perfectly capable of winning the Prem. What went wrong?
Hunger. Some players just didn't want it enough. They had undeniable skill, but they only turned it on for the big occasions. That's what led to our famous 'Jekyll and Hyde' form and our lack of consistency. It's a problem that has plagued us ever since Souness left. And it still does.
Take Voronin. I had a great admiration for his performances when he first arrived but his form has gradually ebbed away until yesterday he was virtually a passenger. Kewell can be another suspect in this little merry-go-round.
Crouch can be a match turner - when he's in the mood.
Of course the likes of Gerrard and Carra are above such things. Their achievements have elevated their names alongside some of the greatest in LFCs history, yet without a title to their names they will only ever be remembered as might-have-beens. You bet they're hungry. Torres too - he came to us to get away from serial under-achievers.
In short despite the fact that, on paper, we have the quality to win, I believe we are still carrying players. Does anyone agree? And if so, who would you name and shame? Or do you think I am just generalizing and it's more complex then that?
|
|
|
| |
|
El Nino
|
Dec 27 2007, 09:05 PM
Post #2
|
|
Unregistered
|
- Berethorn
- Dec 27 2007, 08:16 PM
- Quote:
-
A win may well be a win, but some are undoubtedly better than others, and this last-gasp victory over one of the worst teams ever to "grace" the Premiership was as bad as they come.
It would be easy to hide behind the old adage that one of the signs of a good team is an ability to grab all three points when performance levels are worthy of far less. But surely the sign of a really good team is an ability to put a side as limited as Derby to the sword with the minimum of fuss?
It is all well and good congratulating Gerrard and celebrating with the captain when he scores a last minute winner. But maybe it would be better if one or two players took a look at themselves and asked "if he's doing it, why aren't I?"
As the season wears on Liverpool are increasingly having to rely on the usual suspects and, being world class performers, Gerrard and Torres almost always deliver when it is most needed, as evidenced by the fact that the pair have now scored more than half of the Reds league goals so far this season.
This came from the Echo match report today, and it pretty much sums up the point I was trying to make yesterday - far better in fact. I heard it summed up pretty well a few weeks ago. Our team of a decade or so ago was, imo, perfectly capable of winning the Prem. What went wrong? Hunger. Some players just didn't want it enough. They had undeniable skill, but they only turned it on for the big occasions. That's what led to our famous 'Jekyll and Hyde' form and our lack of consistency. It's a problem that has plagued us ever since Souness left. And it still does. Take Voronin. I had a great admiration for his performances when he first arrived but his form has gradually ebbed away until yesterday he was virtually a passenger. Kewell can be another suspect in this little merry-go-round. Crouch can be a match turner - when he's in the mood. Of course the likes of Gerrard and Carra are above such things. Their achievements have elevated their names alongside some of the greatest in LFCs history, yet without a title to their names they will only ever be remembered as might-have-beens. You bet they're hungry. Torres too - he came to us to get away from serial under-achievers. In short despite the fact that, on paper, we have the quality to win, I believe we are still carrying players. Does anyone agree? And if so, who would you name and shame? Or do you think I am just generalizing and it's more complex then that?
i think both yourself and the echo are overreacting to the game . Also showing massive disrespect to a derby team which have improved a lot since jewell arrived and will cause a few more teams some problems in the future .
|
|
|
| |
Stam
|
Dec 27 2007, 09:07 PM
Post #3
|
International
- Posts:
- 4,592
- Group:
- Manchester United
- Member
- #8
- Joined:
- May 31, 2007
|
You rely to much on Gerrard and now Torres to win you the games. They will do it but its impossible to do it every game.
The players that i wouldnt have in the first team. Benayoun Pennant Kewell Kuyt Hyypia Sissoko Voronin
They are all decent players but not top class- Hyypia was but past it now and should only be used in emergency Kewell- could have been very good but there was a reson why Fergie didnt go for him when he left leeds
|
|
|
| |
Berethorn
|
Dec 27 2007, 09:30 PM
Post #4
|
Mister B-man
- Posts:
- 2,070
- Group:
- Liverpool
- Member
- #21
- Joined:
- July 23, 2007
|
- El Nino
- Dec 27 2007, 10:05 PM
- Berethorn
- Dec 27 2007, 08:16 PM
- Quote:
-
A win may well be a win, but some are undoubtedly better than others, and this last-gasp victory over one of the worst teams ever to "grace" the Premiership was as bad as they come.
It would be easy to hide behind the old adage that one of the signs of a good team is an ability to grab all three points when performance levels are worthy of far less. But surely the sign of a really good team is an ability to put a side as limited as Derby to the sword with the minimum of fuss?
It is all well and good congratulating Gerrard and celebrating with the captain when he scores a last minute winner. But maybe it would be better if one or two players took a look at themselves and asked "if he's doing it, why aren't I?"
As the season wears on Liverpool are increasingly having to rely on the usual suspects and, being world class performers, Gerrard and Torres almost always deliver when it is most needed, as evidenced by the fact that the pair have now scored more than half of the Reds league goals so far this season.
This came from the Echo match report today, and it pretty much sums up the point I was trying to make yesterday - far better in fact. I heard it summed up pretty well a few weeks ago. Our team of a decade or so ago was, imo, perfectly capable of winning the Prem. What went wrong? Hunger. Some players just didn't want it enough. They had undeniable skill, but they only turned it on for the big occasions. That's what led to our famous 'Jekyll and Hyde' form and our lack of consistency. It's a problem that has plagued us ever since Souness left. And it still does. Take Voronin. I had a great admiration for his performances when he first arrived but his form has gradually ebbed away until yesterday he was virtually a passenger. Kewell can be another suspect in this little merry-go-round. Crouch can be a match turner - when he's in the mood. Of course the likes of Gerrard and Carra are above such things. Their achievements have elevated their names alongside some of the greatest in LFCs history, yet without a title to their names they will only ever be remembered as might-have-beens. You bet they're hungry. Torres too - he came to us to get away from serial under-achievers. In short despite the fact that, on paper, we have the quality to win, I believe we are still carrying players. Does anyone agree? And if so, who would you name and shame? Or do you think I am just generalizing and it's more complex then that?
i think both yourself and the echo are overreacting to the game . Also showing massive disrespect to a derby team which have improved a lot since jewell arrived and will cause a few more teams some problems in the future .
:doh:
Thanks Stam, appreciate an objective viewpoint. Although on Sami, whilst I agree he's getting past it he's stepped up to the plate and done a fantastic job for us. He is one player certainly who still has hunger and that goes some way to bridging the gap when it comes to his deficiencies.
|
|
|
| |
starman
|
Dec 27 2007, 09:33 PM
Post #5
|
Space is big, No i mean really hugely big
- Posts:
- 328
- Group:
- Liverpool
- Member
- #177
- Joined:
- December 22, 2007
|
IMO
Benayoun - keep could be another Luis Pennant - has to improve when back from injury Kewell - is showing glimps of what he can do Kuyt - is doing what Rafa wants him to do Hyypia - played more than i would have like or he would have hoped for Sissoko - sell sell sell Voronin - started well but has dropped off lately but hold till end of the season
|
|
|
| |
Stam
|
Dec 27 2007, 09:34 PM
Post #6
|
International
- Posts:
- 4,592
- Group:
- Manchester United
- Member
- #8
- Joined:
- May 31, 2007
|
Thats what i was saying about Hyypia he can do it when needed but you shouldnt be building a team with him in it as his days are numbered
|
|
|
| |
Stam
|
Dec 27 2007, 09:35 PM
Post #7
|
International
- Posts:
- 4,592
- Group:
- Manchester United
- Member
- #8
- Joined:
- May 31, 2007
|
- Quote:
-
Kewell - is showing glimps of what he can do
He has been showing glimpses for the last 4 years
|
|
|
| |
starman
|
Dec 27 2007, 09:44 PM
Post #8
|
Space is big, No i mean really hugely big
- Posts:
- 328
- Group:
- Liverpool
- Member
- #177
- Joined:
- December 22, 2007
|
- Stam
- Dec 27 2007, 09:35 PM
- Quote:
-
Kewell - is showing glimps of what he can do
He has been showing glimpses for the last 4 years
:lol: :salute:
Technically correct but he does have it in him somewhere but the injuries just stop it
|
|
|
| |
Berethorn
|
Dec 27 2007, 09:47 PM
Post #9
|
Mister B-man
- Posts:
- 2,070
- Group:
- Liverpool
- Member
- #21
- Joined:
- July 23, 2007
|
- El Nino
- Dec 27 2007, 10:05 PM
- Berethorn
- Dec 27 2007, 08:16 PM
- Quote:
-
A win may well be a win, but some are undoubtedly better than others, and this last-gasp victory over one of the worst teams ever to "grace" the Premiership was as bad as they come.
It would be easy to hide behind the old adage that one of the signs of a good team is an ability to grab all three points when performance levels are worthy of far less. But surely the sign of a really good team is an ability to put a side as limited as Derby to the sword with the minimum of fuss?
It is all well and good congratulating Gerrard and celebrating with the captain when he scores a last minute winner. But maybe it would be better if one or two players took a look at themselves and asked "if he's doing it, why aren't I?"
As the season wears on Liverpool are increasingly having to rely on the usual suspects and, being world class performers, Gerrard and Torres almost always deliver when it is most needed, as evidenced by the fact that the pair have now scored more than half of the Reds league goals so far this season.
This came from the Echo match report today, and it pretty much sums up the point I was trying to make yesterday - far better in fact. I heard it summed up pretty well a few weeks ago. Our team of a decade or so ago was, imo, perfectly capable of winning the Prem. What went wrong? Hunger. Some players just didn't want it enough. They had undeniable skill, but they only turned it on for the big occasions. That's what led to our famous 'Jekyll and Hyde' form and our lack of consistency. It's a problem that has plagued us ever since Souness left. And it still does. Take Voronin. I had a great admiration for his performances when he first arrived but his form has gradually ebbed away until yesterday he was virtually a passenger. Kewell can be another suspect in this little merry-go-round. Crouch can be a match turner - when he's in the mood. Of course the likes of Gerrard and Carra are above such things. Their achievements have elevated their names alongside some of the greatest in LFCs history, yet without a title to their names they will only ever be remembered as might-have-beens. You bet they're hungry. Torres too - he came to us to get away from serial under-achievers. In short despite the fact that, on paper, we have the quality to win, I believe we are still carrying players. Does anyone agree? And if so, who would you name and shame? Or do you think I am just generalizing and it's more complex then that?
i think both yourself and the echo are overreacting to the game . Also showing massive disrespect to a derby team which have improved a lot since jewell arrived and will cause a few more teams some problems in the future .
I suppose Aldo was overreacting as well then? The guy who said it looked bad for us - when we were one nil up - and was going mental because Voronin wasn't subbed?
It was a performance only topped by Reading in its awfulness. And if it had been Reading out there again we'd be looking at another 3-1 defeat most likely.
I wonder what you would be saying if Derby had gotten that richly deserved draw? Or even snatched all three points? I doubt you would be so blasé about the performance then!
|
|
|
| |
Stam
|
Dec 27 2007, 09:50 PM
Post #10
|
International
- Posts:
- 4,592
- Group:
- Manchester United
- Member
- #8
- Joined:
- May 31, 2007
|
No doubt he is a gifted player but the injuries have fucked him over the years and he will prob never reach the potential he showed at Leeds
|
|
|
| |
|
El Nino
|
Dec 27 2007, 09:52 PM
Post #11
|
|
Unregistered
|
- Berethorn
- Dec 27 2007, 09:47 PM
- El Nino
- Dec 27 2007, 10:05 PM
- Berethorn
- Dec 27 2007, 08:16 PM
- Quote:
-
A win may well be a win, but some are undoubtedly better than others, and this last-gasp victory over one of the worst teams ever to "grace" the Premiership was as bad as they come.
It would be easy to hide behind the old adage that one of the signs of a good team is an ability to grab all three points when performance levels are worthy of far less. But surely the sign of a really good team is an ability to put a side as limited as Derby to the sword with the minimum of fuss?
It is all well and good congratulating Gerrard and celebrating with the captain when he scores a last minute winner. But maybe it would be better if one or two players took a look at themselves and asked "if he's doing it, why aren't I?"
As the season wears on Liverpool are increasingly having to rely on the usual suspects and, being world class performers, Gerrard and Torres almost always deliver when it is most needed, as evidenced by the fact that the pair have now scored more than half of the Reds league goals so far this season.
This came from the Echo match report today, and it pretty much sums up the point I was trying to make yesterday - far better in fact. I heard it summed up pretty well a few weeks ago. Our team of a decade or so ago was, imo, perfectly capable of winning the Prem. What went wrong? Hunger. Some players just didn't want it enough. They had undeniable skill, but they only turned it on for the big occasions. That's what led to our famous 'Jekyll and Hyde' form and our lack of consistency. It's a problem that has plagued us ever since Souness left. And it still does. Take Voronin. I had a great admiration for his performances when he first arrived but his form has gradually ebbed away until yesterday he was virtually a passenger. Kewell can be another suspect in this little merry-go-round. Crouch can be a match turner - when he's in the mood. Of course the likes of Gerrard and Carra are above such things. Their achievements have elevated their names alongside some of the greatest in LFCs history, yet without a title to their names they will only ever be remembered as might-have-beens. You bet they're hungry. Torres too - he came to us to get away from serial under-achievers. In short despite the fact that, on paper, we have the quality to win, I believe we are still carrying players. Does anyone agree? And if so, who would you name and shame? Or do you think I am just generalizing and it's more complex then that?
i think both yourself and the echo are overreacting to the game . Also showing massive disrespect to a derby team which have improved a lot since jewell arrived and will cause a few more teams some problems in the future .
I suppose Aldo was overreacting as well then? The guy who said it looked bad for us - when we were one nil up - and was going mental because Voronin wasn't subbed? It was a performance only topped by Reading in its awfulness. And if it had been Reading out there again we'd be looking at another 3-1 defeat most likely. I wonder what you would be saying if Derby had gotten that richly deserved draw? Or even snatched all three points? I doubt you would be so blasé about the performance then!
but they didnt and we got all three points so i can forget about the performance and look forward to the next game instead off predicting doom and gloom .
|
|
|
| |
starman
|
Dec 27 2007, 09:52 PM
Post #12
|
Space is big, No i mean really hugely big
- Posts:
- 328
- Group:
- Liverpool
- Member
- #177
- Joined:
- December 22, 2007
|
- Berethorn
- Dec 27 2007, 09:47 PM
- El Nino
- Dec 27 2007, 10:05 PM
- Berethorn
- Dec 27 2007, 08:16 PM
- Quote:
-
A win may well be a win, but some are undoubtedly better than others, and this last-gasp victory over one of the worst teams ever to "grace" the Premiership was as bad as they come.
It would be easy to hide behind the old adage that one of the signs of a good team is an ability to grab all three points when performance levels are worthy of far less. But surely the sign of a really good team is an ability to put a side as limited as Derby to the sword with the minimum of fuss?
It is all well and good congratulating Gerrard and celebrating with the captain when he scores a last minute winner. But maybe it would be better if one or two players took a look at themselves and asked "if he's doing it, why aren't I?"
As the season wears on Liverpool are increasingly having to rely on the usual suspects and, being world class performers, Gerrard and Torres almost always deliver when it is most needed, as evidenced by the fact that the pair have now scored more than half of the Reds league goals so far this season.
This came from the Echo match report today, and it pretty much sums up the point I was trying to make yesterday - far better in fact. I heard it summed up pretty well a few weeks ago. Our team of a decade or so ago was, imo, perfectly capable of winning the Prem. What went wrong? Hunger. Some players just didn't want it enough. They had undeniable skill, but they only turned it on for the big occasions. That's what led to our famous 'Jekyll and Hyde' form and our lack of consistency. It's a problem that has plagued us ever since Souness left. And it still does. Take Voronin. I had a great admiration for his performances when he first arrived but his form has gradually ebbed away until yesterday he was virtually a passenger. Kewell can be another suspect in this little merry-go-round. Crouch can be a match turner - when he's in the mood. Of course the likes of Gerrard and Carra are above such things. Their achievements have elevated their names alongside some of the greatest in LFCs history, yet without a title to their names they will only ever be remembered as might-have-beens. You bet they're hungry. Torres too - he came to us to get away from serial under-achievers. In short despite the fact that, on paper, we have the quality to win, I believe we are still carrying players. Does anyone agree? And if so, who would you name and shame? Or do you think I am just generalizing and it's more complex then that?
i think both yourself and the echo are overreacting to the game . Also showing massive disrespect to a derby team which have improved a lot since jewell arrived and will cause a few more teams some problems in the future .
I suppose Aldo was overreacting as well then? The guy who said it looked bad for us - when we were one nil up - and was going mental because Voronin wasn't subbed? It was a performance only topped by Reading in its awfulness. And if it had been Reading out there again we'd be looking at another 3-1 defeat most likely. I wonder what you would be saying if Derby had gotten that richly deserved draw? Or even snatched all three points? I doubt you would be so blasé about the performance then!
So you listen to Aldo as well.
IMO he does over state actions and when i can i watch the match but listen to City and many a time what i see is not the same as he sees.
Yesterday Andri did not seem to do anything so i have to go with what he says.
|
|
|
| |
Ole
|
Dec 27 2007, 11:11 PM
Post #13
|
Hmm...
- Posts:
- 2,378
- Group:
- Manchester United
- Member
- #67
- Joined:
- August 3, 2007
|
I never really rated Voronin, I saw him have 1 good game I think, but he was always your 4th striker right? Benayoun is alright, abit like Park for us, good little player and can come in useful :chin:
Kuyt, can't make my mind up, otherwise i'll agree with Stam :ale:
|
|
|
| |
|
definitelynotmowipromise
|
Dec 27 2007, 11:13 PM
Post #14
|
|
Unregistered
|
- Ole
- Dec 28 2007, 12:11 AM
I never really rated Voronin, I saw him have 1 good game I think, but he was always your 4th striker right? Benayoun is alright, abit like Park for us, good little player and can come in useful :chin: Kuyt, can't make my mind up, otherwise i'll agree with Stam :ale:
Boosts merchandising in South Korea?!
|
|
|
| |
Ole
|
Dec 27 2007, 11:30 PM
Post #15
|
Hmm...
- Posts:
- 2,378
- Group:
- Manchester United
- Member
- #67
- Joined:
- August 3, 2007
|
- definitelynotmowipromise
- Dec 27 2007, 11:13 PM
- Ole
- Dec 28 2007, 12:11 AM
I never really rated Voronin, I saw him have 1 good game I think, but he was always your 4th striker right? Benayoun is alright, abit like Park for us, good little player and can come in useful :chin: Kuyt, can't make my mind up, otherwise i'll agree with Stam :ale:
Boosts merchandising in South Korea?!
Indeed :ale:
|
|
|
| |
|
El Nino
|
Dec 27 2007, 11:32 PM
Post #16
|
|
Unregistered
|
- definitelynotmowipromise
- Dec 27 2007, 11:13 PM
- Ole
- Dec 28 2007, 12:11 AM
I never really rated Voronin, I saw him have 1 good game I think, but he was always your 4th striker right? Benayoun is alright, abit like Park for us, good little player and can come in useful :chin: Kuyt, can't make my mind up, otherwise i'll agree with Stam :ale:
Boosts merchandising in South Korea?!
park is a bit better than what your suggesting . If i remember rightly he was a very important member off a psv team that nearly got to the champs lge final couple off years ago and before he was injured produced the goods on the pitch a bit more than swp or pennant for a fraction off the price . Would off taken park for liverpool .
|
|
|
| |
Lord Gonzo
|
Dec 27 2007, 11:39 PM
Post #17
|
Hang em first. Question em later.
- Posts:
- 2,201
- Group:
- Liverpool
- Member
- #48
- Joined:
- July 25, 2007
|
I was thinking the other day that if we can get a couple of results at Arsenal, Chelsea or Man Utd then there might still be something in this season. Then I remembered our away performances this season and it's a BIG ASK. We've only had 4 (at a stretch) decent performances away from home in all competitions. Two of them were at the start of the season against Villa and Sunderland and they both are at a stretch. The other 2 games being 3-0 at Newcastle and 4-0 at Marsielle. Whilst there can be something said about winning even when you're not performing, stick a half decent team in front of the performance against Derby and we wouldn't have won. Perform like that at the Emirates, the Bridge or Old Trafford and there won't be any doubt about it, we'll be out of what's left of the title race and scrapping for a CL place. The performances need to improve and become more frequent away from home.
I'm suprised to see JAR not get a mention as one of the players that isn't performing. He's been like it since last season.
|
|
|
| |
Stam
|
Dec 27 2007, 11:46 PM
Post #18
|
International
- Posts:
- 4,592
- Group:
- Manchester United
- Member
- #8
- Joined:
- May 31, 2007
|
Sorry Gonzo i ment to mention him aswell
:lol:
|
|
|
| |
Lord Gonzo
|
Dec 27 2007, 11:51 PM
Post #19
|
Hang em first. Question em later.
- Posts:
- 2,201
- Group:
- Liverpool
- Member
- #48
- Joined:
- July 25, 2007
|
- Stam
- Dec 27 2007, 11:46 PM
Sorry Gonzo i ment to mention him aswell
:lol:
So you should be :humph:
|
|
|
| |
Stam
|
Dec 28 2007, 12:21 AM
Post #20
|
International
- Posts:
- 4,592
- Group:
- Manchester United
- Member
- #8
- Joined:
- May 31, 2007
|
Happy xmas mate :ale:
|
|
|
| |
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
|