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The Problem
Topic Started: Dec 27 2007, 08:16 PM (213 Views)
77 sides of chrome Liverpool
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League Two
I'am normally the first to slate players for their performance and yes there are a few that should not wear the shirt but at this moment in time i will concentrate on the win rather than the negatives that go with it. Over the last few weeks Chelsea have not played well but still have come away with 3 ponts, I'll take that every time.
As for players leaving I think Rafa believes he has a big squad but not the quality in depth he perhaps he thought he had. Some of the players listed have not played well for many months but were still here at the start of the season. The possible restraints on transfer cash in Jan may force Rafa's hand but I think the clear out will happen in the close season.
I'am supprised that Yossi is mentioned in the list as I have been impressed with the majority of his performances. It shows how subjective and personel each of our opinions are.
I dont want to sacrifice performance over results but you have to credit our team with their persistance and Stevie in getting the goal. The reality is we have to win ugly sometimes, our goal difference shows we are not a lucky side who always wins 1-0.We have improved our goal scoring this season.
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GEJP FC Parma
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Championship
Stam
Dec 27 2007, 10:07 PM

They are all decent players but not top class- Hyypia was but past it now and should only be used in emergency
Kewell- could have been very good but there was a reson why Fergie didnt go for him when he left leeds

But if you listen to Fergie Torres cant score in England. I think we safe to ignore his advice
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Berethorn Liverpool
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Mister B-man
77 sides of chrome
Dec 28 2007, 09:15 AM
I'am normally the first to slate players for their performance and yes there are a few that should not wear the shirt but at this moment in time i will concentrate on the win rather than the negatives that go with it. Over the last few weeks Chelsea have not played well but still have come away with 3 ponts, I'll take that every time.
As for players leaving I think Rafa believes he has a big squad but not the quality in depth he perhaps he thought he had. Some of the players listed have not played well for many months but were still here at the start of the season. The possible restraints on transfer cash in Jan may force Rafa's hand but I think the clear out will happen in the close season.
I'am supprised that Yossi is mentioned in the list as I have been impressed with the majority of his performances. It shows how subjective and personel each of our opinions are.
I dont want to sacrifice performance over results but you have to credit our team with their persistance and Stevie in getting the goal. The reality is we have to win ugly sometimes, our goal difference shows we are not a lucky side who always wins 1-0.We have improved our goal scoring this season.

What disappointed me is that, after all the big talk about the need for a performance, we went and churned out something almost as bad as Reading. I am as thankful as any 'Pool fan for the three points, don't get me wrong on that, but there are too many players who are talking big and not following it up.

Now my brother, who is rabidly anti-Benitez, reckons these poor performances are down to rotation denting players' confidence and Rafa's poor subs. I agree on the subs, but fact is Crouch fought back proved his worth after a shocking start and that's what other players need to do. IMO it is also more a case of players lacking hunger than Rafa's tactics - a problem that should be rectified by extra cash making the transfer market more flexible for us.

For me though the bottom line is another performance like that against City and it wont matter how hungry Torres and Gerrard are - City'll rip us a new one.
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Stam Manchester United
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International
GEJP
Dec 28 2007, 09:19 AM
Stam
Dec 27 2007, 10:07 PM

They are all decent players but not top class- Hyypia was but past it now and should only be used in emergency
Kewell- could have been very good but there was a reson why Fergie didnt go for him when he left leeds

But if you listen to Fergie Torres cant score in England. I think we safe to ignore his advice

:chin: whats this mate?
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redscouser Liverpool
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Championship
Berethorn
Dec 27 2007, 09:16 PM
Quote:
 
A win may well be a win, but some are undoubtedly better than others, and this last-gasp victory over one of the worst teams ever to "grace" the Premiership was as bad as they come.

It would be easy to hide behind the old adage that one of the signs of a good team is an ability to grab all three points when performance levels are worthy of far less. But surely the sign of a really good team is an ability to put a side as limited as Derby to the sword with the minimum of fuss?

It is all well and good congratulating Gerrard and celebrating with the captain when he scores a last minute winner. But maybe it would be better if one or two players took a look at themselves and asked "if he's doing it, why aren't I?"

As the season wears on Liverpool are increasingly having to rely on the usual suspects and, being world class performers, Gerrard and Torres almost always deliver when it is most needed, as evidenced by the fact that the pair have now scored more than half of the Reds’ league goals so far this season.


This came from the Echo match report today, and it pretty much sums up the point I was trying to make yesterday - far better in fact. I heard it summed up pretty well a few weeks ago. Our team of a decade or so ago was, imo, perfectly capable of winning the Prem. What went wrong?

Hunger. Some players just didn't want it enough. They had undeniable skill, but they only turned it on for the big occasions. That's what led to our famous 'Jekyll and Hyde' form and our lack of consistency. It's a problem that has plagued us ever since Souness left. And it still does.

Take Voronin. I had a great admiration for his performances when he first arrived but his form has gradually ebbed away until yesterday he was virtually a passenger. Kewell can be another suspect in this little merry-go-round.

Crouch can be a match turner - when he's in the mood.

Of course the likes of Gerrard and Carra are above such things. Their achievements have elevated their names alongside some of the greatest in LFCs history, yet without a title to their names they will only ever be remembered as might-have-beens. You bet they're hungry. Torres too - he came to us to get away from serial under-achievers.

In short despite the fact that, on paper, we have the quality to win, I believe we are still carrying players. Does anyone agree? And if so, who would you name and shame? Or do you think I am just generalizing and it's more complex then that?

Under performers need to go. The ones for me are:

Voronin - little wonder he was free
Kuyt - great work rate but little end product
Sissoko - as above
Kewell - just not there anymore
Pennant - will not go past people

I'd keep both Benayoun and Hyypia for squad cover. I also think that Crouch is a must keep.

I'm not trying to make these out to be the scapegoats, but if we really want to win the title we need players to deliver.

We need both a left and right winger, a striker and a CB. I'd also rather wait until summer to get the ones we really want.
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GEJP FC Parma
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Championship
Stam
Dec 28 2007, 11:14 AM
GEJP
Dec 28 2007, 09:19 AM
Stam
Dec 27 2007, 10:07 PM

They are all decent players but not top class- Hyypia was but past it now and should only be used in emergency
Kewell- could have been very good but there was a reson why Fergie didnt go for him when he left leeds

But if you listen to Fergie Torres cant score in England. I think we safe to ignore his advice

:chin: whats this mate?

Fergie reckoned he wouldnt score so you didnt sign him. Great thinking that was
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Stam Manchester United
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International
No he said we where interested in him a few times but he kept chossing to stay in spain so he lost interest- he always spoke highly of him.
I never read anything thing different tbh
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Berethorn Liverpool
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Mister B-man
redscouser
Dec 28 2007, 11:15 AM
Berethorn
Dec 27 2007, 09:16 PM
Quote:
 
A win may well be a win, but some are undoubtedly better than others, and this last-gasp victory over one of the worst teams ever to "grace" the Premiership was as bad as they come.

It would be easy to hide behind the old adage that one of the signs of a good team is an ability to grab all three points when performance levels are worthy of far less. But surely the sign of a really good team is an ability to put a side as limited as Derby to the sword with the minimum of fuss?

It is all well and good congratulating Gerrard and celebrating with the captain when he scores a last minute winner. But maybe it would be better if one or two players took a look at themselves and asked "if he's doing it, why aren't I?"

As the season wears on Liverpool are increasingly having to rely on the usual suspects and, being world class performers, Gerrard and Torres almost always deliver when it is most needed, as evidenced by the fact that the pair have now scored more than half of the Reds’ league goals so far this season.


This came from the Echo match report today, and it pretty much sums up the point I was trying to make yesterday - far better in fact. I heard it summed up pretty well a few weeks ago. Our team of a decade or so ago was, imo, perfectly capable of winning the Prem. What went wrong?

Hunger. Some players just didn't want it enough. They had undeniable skill, but they only turned it on for the big occasions. That's what led to our famous 'Jekyll and Hyde' form and our lack of consistency. It's a problem that has plagued us ever since Souness left. And it still does.

Take Voronin. I had a great admiration for his performances when he first arrived but his form has gradually ebbed away until yesterday he was virtually a passenger. Kewell can be another suspect in this little merry-go-round.

Crouch can be a match turner - when he's in the mood.

Of course the likes of Gerrard and Carra are above such things. Their achievements have elevated their names alongside some of the greatest in LFCs history, yet without a title to their names they will only ever be remembered as might-have-beens. You bet they're hungry. Torres too - he came to us to get away from serial under-achievers.

In short despite the fact that, on paper, we have the quality to win, I believe we are still carrying players. Does anyone agree? And if so, who would you name and shame? Or do you think I am just generalizing and it's more complex then that?

Under performers need to go. The ones for me are:

Voronin - little wonder he was free
Kuyt - great work rate but little end product
Sissoko - as above
Kewell - just not there anymore
Pennant - will not go past people

I'd keep both Benayoun and Hyypia for squad cover. I also think that Crouch is a must keep.

I'm not trying to make these out to be the scapegoats, but if we really want to win the title we need players to deliver.

We need both a left and right winger, a striker and a CB. I'd also rather wait until summer to get the ones we really want.

Well you have to ask yourself another question: Is Kuyt's lack of end product, ie goals, because he plays too deep, and if so isn't that Rafa playing him there rather than the guy picking the spot naturally? Wasn't he a natural, in the box striker back home?

This is something that has bothered me for sometime about Rafa and I can never be quite sure whether I'm just seeing shadows. Take away the fact that Cisse was a mouthy, moody player who still didn't know the meaning of the words "Look Up" when 3 yards in front of an empty net, how much of his poor performances were due to first, being played out of position, and second, how that ultimately affected his confidence and therefore his overall game? (To the point that when he was played where he wanted to be played, he tended to play as crap there as everywhere else?)

My bro is convinced Rafa'll be gone in the summer. I hope not but he really does need to learn that not everything in his Valencia model might translate well to the Prem. He's had 3 1/2 years to figure that out but it looks like he's still too stubborn to admit it.
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redscouser Liverpool
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Championship
Berethorn
Dec 28 2007, 01:56 PM
redscouser
Dec 28 2007, 11:15 AM
Berethorn
Dec 27 2007, 09:16 PM
Quote:
 
A win may well be a win, but some are undoubtedly better than others, and this last-gasp victory over one of the worst teams ever to "grace" the Premiership was as bad as they come.

It would be easy to hide behind the old adage that one of the signs of a good team is an ability to grab all three points when performance levels are worthy of far less. But surely the sign of a really good team is an ability to put a side as limited as Derby to the sword with the minimum of fuss?

It is all well and good congratulating Gerrard and celebrating with the captain when he scores a last minute winner. But maybe it would be better if one or two players took a look at themselves and asked "if he's doing it, why aren't I?"

As the season wears on Liverpool are increasingly having to rely on the usual suspects and, being world class performers, Gerrard and Torres almost always deliver when it is most needed, as evidenced by the fact that the pair have now scored more than half of the Reds’ league goals so far this season.


This came from the Echo match report today, and it pretty much sums up the point I was trying to make yesterday - far better in fact. I heard it summed up pretty well a few weeks ago. Our team of a decade or so ago was, imo, perfectly capable of winning the Prem. What went wrong?

Hunger. Some players just didn't want it enough. They had undeniable skill, but they only turned it on for the big occasions. That's what led to our famous 'Jekyll and Hyde' form and our lack of consistency. It's a problem that has plagued us ever since Souness left. And it still does.

Take Voronin. I had a great admiration for his performances when he first arrived but his form has gradually ebbed away until yesterday he was virtually a passenger. Kewell can be another suspect in this little merry-go-round.

Crouch can be a match turner - when he's in the mood.

Of course the likes of Gerrard and Carra are above such things. Their achievements have elevated their names alongside some of the greatest in LFCs history, yet without a title to their names they will only ever be remembered as might-have-beens. You bet they're hungry. Torres too - he came to us to get away from serial under-achievers.

In short despite the fact that, on paper, we have the quality to win, I believe we are still carrying players. Does anyone agree? And if so, who would you name and shame? Or do you think I am just generalizing and it's more complex then that?

Under performers need to go. The ones for me are:

Voronin - little wonder he was free
Kuyt - great work rate but little end product
Sissoko - as above
Kewell - just not there anymore
Pennant - will not go past people

I'd keep both Benayoun and Hyypia for squad cover. I also think that Crouch is a must keep.

I'm not trying to make these out to be the scapegoats, but if we really want to win the title we need players to deliver.

We need both a left and right winger, a striker and a CB. I'd also rather wait until summer to get the ones we really want.

Well you have to ask yourself another question: Is Kuyt's lack of end product, ie goals, because he plays too deep, and if so isn't that Rafa playing him there rather than the guy picking the spot naturally? Wasn't he a natural, in the box striker back home?

This is something that has bothered me for sometime about Rafa and I can never be quite sure whether I'm just seeing shadows. Take away the fact that Cisse was a mouthy, moody player who still didn't know the meaning of the words "Look Up" when 3 yards in front of an empty net, how much of his poor performances were due to first, being played out of position, and second, how that ultimately affected his confidence and therefore his overall game? (To the point that when he was played where he wanted to be played, he tended to play as crap there as everywhere else?)

My bro is convinced Rafa'll be gone in the summer. I hope not but he really does need to learn that not everything in his Valencia model might translate well to the Prem. He's had 3 1/2 years to figure that out but it looks like he's still too stubborn to admit it.

Kuyt doesn't have to play deep because we have the right players now in the midfield. I'm not really sure if that's Kuyt just going there or Rafa telling him to. If it's the latter then I'd take your point, but i'm not so sure.

I've seen nothing that will convince me he's a natural goalscorer - there have been a whole load of sitters missed since he's been with us.

Cisse was just a poor player imo. Fantastic pace, but clueless otherwise. Ok, Rafa didn't help by playing him out there, but at the time there was no real viable alternative. We had no real money then, so Rafa had to work with what was there. The fact that Cisse is little better now just underlines he wasn't good enough anyway.

I'd accept your point about him having to learn to adapt his model to fit the premiership. He frustrates me with some of his decisions as well. But we have to realise that the success will not just come overnight. It took Fergie 6 years to get it right with the mancs - and look at the results since. Remember also that those were the days before the really silly transfer fees.

I'd rather it take a year or two longer and build a platform for future success as well than just win it as a one-off. I think Rafa is putting the right building blocks in place and I'd really like to see him stay and see it through.

The facts are that we have improved season on season since he came and we are now verging on playing the right kind of football. He just needs a few more players to finish it off.

If we were to change manager we'd just go back 4 years imo and then have to wait for the new guy to make an impact.
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definitelynotmowipromise
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redscouser
Dec 28 2007, 02:14 PM
If we were to change manager we'd just go back 4 years imo and then have to wait for the new guy to make an impact.

Honest question. I know it won't happen, but if Mourinho were to take charge in July and win you the league, how would you feel?
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Berethorn Liverpool
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Mister B-man
definitelynotmowipromise
Dec 28 2007, 02:48 PM
redscouser
Dec 28 2007, 02:14 PM
If we were to change manager we'd just go back 4 years imo and then have to wait for the new guy to make an impact.

Honest question. I know it won't happen, but if Mourinho were to take charge in July and win you the league, how would you feel?

Guess it would depend on how much money he was given by the yanks and who he spent it on.

Right now a number of supposedly key players appear to lack hunger. Is that down to them or is it a confidence issue brought on by Rafa's tactics and selection policy? I have no problem with rotation, but are the right players rotated at the right time? The Boxing Day subs were barmy imo.
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redscouser Liverpool
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Championship
definitelynotmowipromise
Dec 28 2007, 02:48 PM
redscouser
Dec 28 2007, 02:14 PM
If we were to change manager we'd just go back 4 years imo and then have to wait for the new guy to make an impact.

Honest question. I know it won't happen, but if Mourinho were to take charge in July and win you the league, how would you feel?

I suppose we'd have to like then - wouldn't we :bat:
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The Nutmeg King
Unregistered

Stam
Dec 27 2007, 10:07 PM
You rely to much on Gerrard and now Torres to win you the games. They will do it but its impossible to do it every game.

The players that i wouldnt have in the first team.
Benayoun
Pennant
Kewell
Kuyt
Hyypia
Sissoko
Voronin

They are all decent players but not top class- Hyypia was but past it now and should only be used in emergency
Kewell- could have been very good but there was a reson why Fergie didnt go for him when he left leeds

Weird argument IMO - one that many use - an over-reliance on certain players to win us games.

When you consider that in the past few matches we've included several big scoring thumpings and not long ago everyone was raging on about how good it is to see goals from so many different areas of the pitch.

Strange how a couple of results changes what an objective point of view looks like!!

And the thing about world class players is that they're there to be relied on - that's what makes them a class above the rest, their ability to pull it out of the bag when it matters - in basketball, the Yanks call them "clutch" players, the ones that the team go to when they need something special to happen to win the match.
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The Nutmeg King
Unregistered

definitelynotmowipromise
Dec 28 2007, 02:48 PM
redscouser
Dec 28 2007, 02:14 PM
If we were to change manager we'd just go back 4 years imo and then have to wait for the new guy to make an impact.

Honest question. I know it won't happen, but if Mourinho were to take charge in July and win you the league, how would you feel?

Ambivalent.

Joyous but grubby.
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Berethorn Liverpool
Member Avatar
Mister B-man
The Nutmeg King
Dec 28 2007, 06:00 PM
Stam
Dec 27 2007, 10:07 PM
You rely to much on Gerrard and now Torres to win you the games. They will do it but its impossible to do it every game.

The players that i wouldnt have in the first team.
Benayoun
Pennant
Kewell
Kuyt
Hyypia
Sissoko
Voronin

They are all decent players but not top class- Hyypia was but past it now and should only be used in emergency
Kewell- could have been very good but there was a reson why Fergie didnt go for him when he left leeds

Weird argument IMO - one that many use - an over-reliance on certain players to win us games.

When you consider that in the past few matches we've included several big scoring thumpings and not long ago everyone was raging on about how good it is to see goals from so many different areas of the pitch.

Strange how a couple of results changes what an objective point of view looks like!!

And the thing about world class players is that they're there to be relied on - that's what makes them a class above the rest, their ability to pull it out of the bag when it matters - in basketball, the Yanks call them "clutch" players, the ones that the team go to when they need something special to happen to win the match.

Some good points made there.

On the issue of the goals and where they're coming from I strongly suspect it's a confidence issue, tied in with the hungry player mentality I have alluded to previously. When we're up and doing well and scoring for fun it's great and we're as dangerous as any team in the Prem that has a shot at the title. But the instant we begin to struggle, too many heads drop and we're left relying on just a handful of players - Carra, Reina, Gerrard, Torres, Lucas - to get the results.

Simply put we have too many fair weather players in our ranks. They're genius when we're doing well, but the instant we flounder they don't want to know. Look at Voronin for example - what does he have to lose?

And, not to suggest Kuyt isn't pulling his weight because he is a definite trier, but sometimes you could be forgiven for thinking that win lose or draw all his performances look exactly the same.
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Sam Drury Liverpool
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League Two
definitelynotmowipromise
Dec 28 2007, 01:48 PM
redscouser
Dec 28 2007, 02:14 PM
If we were to change manager we'd just go back 4 years imo and then have to wait for the new guy to make an impact.

Honest question. I know it won't happen, but if Mourinho were to take charge in July and win you the league, how would you feel?

Delighted.

TBH as much as he did to make me dislike him at Chelsea he is a top quality manager and if Rafa left he'd be the best option to replace him IMO, certainly of those available at the moment. Most Liverpool would probably disagree and say they wouldn't want Mourinho but to me its all about whats best for the club and for me thats to keep Rafa but if he were to leave, I'd be happy to have Mourinho as his replacement.
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CMR
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NM
I think Liverpool's problem is that Benitez is more interested in the CL than the Premiership and so rests players in league games to save them for midweek, when most of your fans would much rather do well in the league than the CL.

Also you don't have the quality consistantly through your squad which is needed (neither do we, so don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to insult you). You have a few stand out players like Gerrard, Torres, Carraghar, but other than that the rest of them are quite average. So when they don't turn up, you often find it difficult to break down teams.
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The Nutmeg King
Unregistered

Berethorn
Dec 28 2007, 06:16 PM
The Nutmeg King
Dec 28 2007, 06:00 PM
Stam
Dec 27 2007, 10:07 PM
You rely to much on Gerrard and now Torres to win you the games. They will do it but its impossible to do it every game.

The players that i wouldnt have in the first team.
Benayoun
Pennant
Kewell
Kuyt
Hyypia
Sissoko
Voronin

They are all decent players but not top class- Hyypia was but past it now and should only be used in emergency
Kewell- could have been very good but there was a reson why Fergie didnt go for him when he left leeds

Weird argument IMO - one that many use - an over-reliance on certain players to win us games.

When you consider that in the past few matches we've included several big scoring thumpings and not long ago everyone was raging on about how good it is to see goals from so many different areas of the pitch.

Strange how a couple of results changes what an objective point of view looks like!!

And the thing about world class players is that they're there to be relied on - that's what makes them a class above the rest, their ability to pull it out of the bag when it matters - in basketball, the Yanks call them "clutch" players, the ones that the team go to when they need something special to happen to win the match.

Some good points made there.

On the issue of the goals and where they're coming from I strongly suspect it's a confidence issue, tied in with the hungry player mentality I have alluded to previously. When we're up and doing well and scoring for fun it's great and we're as dangerous as any team in the Prem that has a shot at the title. But the instant we begin to struggle, too many heads drop and we're left relying on just a handful of players - Carra, Reina, Gerrard, Torres, Lucas - to get the results.

Simply put we have too many fair weather players in our ranks. They're genius when we're doing well, but the instant we flounder they don't want to know. Look at Voronin for example - what does he have to lose?

And, not to suggest Kuyt isn't pulling his weight because he is a definite trier, but sometimes you could be forgiven for thinking that win lose or draw all his performances look exactly the same.

I don't think Voronin could believe his luck when we were in for him.

Kuyt, well he's not good enough but we've been there....
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Berethorn Liverpool
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Mister B-man
CMR
Dec 28 2007, 11:35 PM
I think Liverpool's problem is that Benitez is more interested in the CL than the Premiership and so rests players in league games to save them for midweek, when most of your fans would much rather do well in the league than the CL.

Also you don't have the quality consistantly through your squad which is needed (neither do we, so don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to insult you). You have a few stand out players like Gerrard, Torres, Carraghar, but other than that the rest of them are quite average. So when they don't turn up, you often find it difficult to break down teams.

I don't strictly agree. That sounds more like the kind of myth the media has perpetuated. Rafa played full strength sides in our last three Prem games; it was our performances that let us down.

What I would say is that Rafa's own meticulous nature can be his own worst enemy. He wont seriously consider a title bid until he decides we have the team to launch one. Oh he'll say we have a chance but a chance is a far cry from a challenge. He's not a man who comes across as someone who can take a gamble and just go for it. If the Boss doesn't think they're ready then the players wont think they're ready either. Until that point Rafa considers the CL as a viable alternative. Right now he is frustrated because he wants the players to go for the title and doesn't feel he has them, and that filters down to the fans who are frustrated because the title is our priority.

We do have average players I admit, but then many Liverpool fans would say Carrick and Hargreaves are average but it doesn't stop Utd challenging. SWP had great potential but he's become average because of the team situation he found himself in. A winning mentality can make up these deficiencies to some degree, which is why I highlighted hunger as a key ingredient to any title challenge.

No-one would expect an average player to be capable of playing out of his skin week in week out - otherwise he wouldn't be average. The trick is to be able to raise your game for key matches, or just key moments in specific matches. Something like Yossi or Luis.

It's not that we have average players in key areas as much as these average players are not hungry enough.
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