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Rafa must STAY; Posted this on 606
Topic Started: Jan 10 2008, 07:57 PM (196 Views)
Berethorn Liverpool
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Mister B-man
Newcastle was all the warning I needed. There you have a collection of players, many of which have been brought in by several different managers who all had their own ideas on how to play football. This hodgepodge of players try to learn how to play together before the next manager comes in and starts ringing the changes yet again. The situation at St James' Park is one of constant flux, with no continuity.

Let's forget what Rafa has won for a minute and look at the facts with clarity. It took him the best part of two seasons to offload the worst of the Houllier-era signings, usually at a heavy loss.

So you're either selling players at a loss or sending them out on loan, and your overall transfer kitty is pretty small. As Rafa is a rotator he decides he has to balance quality against quantity; the players he's cutting loose need to be replaced. He goes for some young players with potential, a few older, experienced players, and some decidedly average ones. It's something of a makeshift side but one that offered some semblance of stability.

Now there is the chance, with the new owners perseverance, that Rafa can move onto a new, 3rd phase of squad building. Finally offloading what history will see as average stopgap players that his budget constrained him to buy and replacing them with serious quality. I think the owners realise that. Why else would we be looking at a club record busting fee for a CB?

Don't misunderstand me. I'm very disappointed with the way we have struggled this season. I didn't want Rafa gone, but couldn't understand how circumstances could allow him to stay. But once I took a step back and looked at Rafa's rein season by season, splitting it into phases of squad building, then we are, in essence, only just fully emerged from the Houllier period.

To get shut of Rafa now would be Newcastle scale suicide, disrupting the squad once again by introducing a new manager with his own ideas of what players are needed and how they should play. Four seasons are simply not enough. If you look at the two most successful clubs, Utd and Arsenal, they have the longest serving managers. Unless you have Chelsea money to rebuild a side in two seasons or less there's just no other way to do it but through having patience. Even Shanks took five years or so to win his first title.

My faith was shaken but now it's back. Rafa needs another two years at least. Otherwise we'll be asking the Toon who fitted the revolving door in their manager's office so we can ring them up and ask for a quote.
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Sam Drury Liverpool
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League Two
Agree 100%. "thumb" :ale:
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Scarface1981 Liverpool
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League One
Top post. That pretty much says it all.

I was actually thinking about this on a smaller scale the other day - if we did get rid of Rafa, we have a team that is defensively set up to play Zonal marking at set pieces.

As has been pointed out by Tomkins on many occasions, our zonal marking means we concede fewer goals at set pieces, despite what the tabloid media claims. If we got rid of Rafa, would the Yanks have the understanding of the game to get a top manager who uses the same system? Otherwise it's another transitional period to get players back into the mindset of man-to-man marking, and as the first season of zonal taught us, it's not as easy as it might seem, even for top pros.

And this goes for all other aspects of the tactical set up - as I've pointed out a couple of times recently, the reason Wenger is so successful is that he's had years of management and now all the youth team players coming through play exactly how he wants, and can just slot in.

So I agree, Rafa does need time, and I for one still back him.
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starman Liverpool
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Space is big, No i mean really hugely big
So I agree, Rafa does need time, and I for one still back him.

and me!!
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Socco
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©Jesus

I hope you get your wish "thumb"

But serious trophies must follow the serious spending guys "thumb"
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rafasredangel Liverpool
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Future Oscar winner!
Completely agree with the original post.
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Socco
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©Jesus

I should say... Top post "thumb"
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Berethorn Liverpool
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Mister B-man
Cheers. :ale:

It's the media who want Rafa out. They need him out because they've said he's going and they'll look like prize idiots if he doesn't.
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Socco
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©Jesus

I guess it's down to the coin fella - And the vast majority of fans are happy with the direction. :chin:
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Numbers Liverpool
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fighting for truth and justice in a sick, sordid virtual world.
common sense as usual B :hail:

There's no viable alternative to Rafa.
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Scarface1981 Liverpool
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League One
Berethorn
Jan 10 2008, 10:05 PM
Cheers. :ale:

It's the media who want Rafa out. They need him out because they've said he's going and they'll look like prize idiots if he doesn't.

It scares me how much influence the tabloid media have in this country. :tosser:
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Sir Leslie Phillips Liverpool
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League One
Scarface1981
Jan 10 2008, 10:16 PM
It scares me how much influence the tabloid media have in this country. :tosser:

I say dear Scarf!!

One has never ever used one of these 'smilies' before, but am delighted to see that there is one in honour of the late great Mr Gareth Hunt.

:tosser: It's all in the beans.
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TaffyBlue
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Bring me sheep !!!!!!
Its a really tough one .. I really couldnt care less but look at the facts

Yes you have won the CL once and got to another final .. and had that trio of cups one season ..all well and good ..but...

Im sure every single Liverpool fan out there will admit its the league title you want , and , IMO your no closer now than you were when Rafa arrived and considering the investment put in , dont you think its a bit piss poor to say the least?
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The Nutmeg King
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TaffyBlue
Jan 11 2008, 12:21 AM
Its a really tough one .. I really couldnt care less but look at the facts

Yes you have won the CL once and got to another final .. and had that trio of cups one season ..all well and good ..but...

Im sure every single Liverpool fan out there will admit its the league title you want , and , IMO your no closer now than you were when Rafa arrived and considering the investment put in , dont you think its a bit piss poor to say the least?

Technically you're wrong, here's why:

We're on an average of 1.9 points per game at this stage in the season, rather than 1.81 we were this time last season.... :whistle:

Apparently that's good enough for some, it's the argument most often used whenever something Liverpool is questioned by fans. :redscarf:

Rafa has had to make do to some extent, up til last summer - we've gone for second choices like Bellamy, Kuyt and Zenden when in actual fact we'd ideally have wanted to be in the mix for the likes of Torres and Babel - the big name, in demand players in Europe.

And he's done well considering, I think.

I don't want him to go. I do want the owners to fulfil the promises they made in May last year and back Rafa to sign "Snoogy Doogy", whoever it might be, and get our first choice signings.

If Rafa's hands are tied again, we might not get any closer, but I don't see it as the manager's fault if that happens.
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Berethorn Liverpool
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Mister B-man
TaffyBlue
Jan 11 2008, 12:21 AM
Its a really tough one .. I really couldnt care less but look at the facts

Yes you have won the CL once and got to another final .. and had that trio of cups one season ..all well and good ..but...

Im sure every single Liverpool fan out there will admit its the league title you want , and , IMO your no closer now than you were when Rafa arrived and considering the investment put in , dont you think its a bit piss poor to say the least?

What investment? Before this season Rafa had enough of a budget to buy maybe one £10m rated player a season. Chelsea spent £24m for a benchwarmer and £30m on a striker who's proved less successful than Kuyt in the Prem.

I believe Rafa spread his budget, concentrating on quantity rather than quality because he had so much dross to move on. The players he couldn't sell outright he stuck out on loan but he needed to plug the gaps somehow. The players he got may not have been ideal, such as Morientes, Bellers, Momo, Pennant and the like, but they filled the gaps in the squad. Some, like Morientes, didn't work out as planned. Others, like Momo, failed to live up to their potential, but in far less damaging ways than Diouf or Cheyrou.

Do we have an average side now? Yes we do. But they're Rafa's players and it's Rafa's team. You could say we're through the intermediate period of major rebuilding, the Rafa 1 period you could call it. Now we're into the Rafa 2 stage, we're he's (hopefully) able to step up a gear in who he can buy and how much he can spend on them. In doing so there's inevitably imbalance in the side as players like Torres show just how average players like Kuyt are. If Rafa gets his way in summer however, a couple of star wingers, a creative AM to take the pressure of Gerrard, and a new forward - probably no more than £60m in total not counting Bangers - could see the quality in the side raised significantly.

Putting star players into a team of strugglers doesn't work. The star player just gets miffed and wants to walk. If Rafa had tried to buy one £25m rated player a season we'd have about 3 players in the team and likely still be stuck with Cisse on the right. It's been costly in the short term but far better to start from scratch. We're lucky in that Torres is young and loyal and can see Rafa's long term vision. He knows that if Rafa gets his way the disruption in the side wont last for too long.

Rafa's tried to invest wisely. It's not always come off but at least we can console ourselves in the fact that average players don't depreciate in value in the same way 'star' players do. Cisse was a star and we lost a ton on him. Most of the 'average' players Rafa's been condemned for signing have been moved off at little to no loss to the club, and sometimes actually with a small profit.

It's a waste of time denying we've been piss poor this season because it's absolutely true, but sacking Rafa isn't the answer. For me it's just a question of stepping back and looking at the broader pictures. Rafa's finished his preliminary work of stablising the club and now he needs to sort out making some of his repairs more permanent.
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Sir Leslie Phillips Liverpool
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League One
I say dear Cumrag!!

Marvellous posting my good man - all that talk about Gareth Hunt has really brought out the bean shakers one sees...........
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TaffyBlue
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Bring me sheep !!!!!!
The Nutmeg King
Jan 11 2008, 12:39 AM
TaffyBlue
Jan 11 2008, 12:21 AM
Its a really tough one .. I really couldnt care less but look at the facts

Yes you have won the CL once and got to another final .. and had that trio of cups one season ..all well and good ..but...

Im sure every single Liverpool fan out there will admit its the league title you want , and , IMO your no closer now than you were when Rafa arrived and considering the investment put in , dont you think its a bit piss poor to say the least?

Technically you're wrong, here's why:

We're on an average of 1.9 points per game at this stage in the season, rather than 1.81 we were this time last season.... :whistle:

Apparently that's good enough for some, it's the argument most often used whenever something Liverpool is questioned by fans. :redscarf:

Rafa has had to make do to some extent, up til last summer - we've gone for second choices like Bellamy, Kuyt and Zenden when in actual fact we'd ideally have wanted to be in the mix for the likes of Torres and Babel - the big name, in demand players in Europe.

And he's done well considering, I think.

I don't want him to go. I do want the owners to fulfil the promises they made in May last year and back Rafa to sign "Snoogy Doogy", whoever it might be, and get our first choice signings.

If Rafa's hands are tied again, we might not get any closer, but I don't see it as the manager's fault if that happens.

Id give him til end of the season .. but if its 4th place or worse then big questions need to be asked dont you think?

Still things change around very quickly in football so only time will tell.
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The Nutmeg King
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TaffyBlue
Jan 11 2008, 12:43 AM
The Nutmeg King
Jan 11 2008, 12:39 AM
TaffyBlue
Jan 11 2008, 12:21 AM
Its a really tough one .. I really couldnt care less but look at the facts

Yes you have won the CL once and got to another final .. and had that trio of cups one season ..all well and good ..but...

Im sure every single Liverpool fan out there will admit its the league title you want , and , IMO your no closer now than you were when Rafa arrived and considering the investment put in , dont you think its a bit piss poor to say the least?

Technically you're wrong, here's why:

We're on an average of 1.9 points per game at this stage in the season, rather than 1.81 we were this time last season.... :whistle:

Apparently that's good enough for some, it's the argument most often used whenever something Liverpool is questioned by fans. :redscarf:

Rafa has had to make do to some extent, up til last summer - we've gone for second choices like Bellamy, Kuyt and Zenden when in actual fact we'd ideally have wanted to be in the mix for the likes of Torres and Babel - the big name, in demand players in Europe.

And he's done well considering, I think.

I don't want him to go. I do want the owners to fulfil the promises they made in May last year and back Rafa to sign "Snoogy Doogy", whoever it might be, and get our first choice signings.

If Rafa's hands are tied again, we might not get any closer, but I don't see it as the manager's fault if that happens.

Id give him til end of the season .. but if its 4th place or worse then big questions need to be asked dont you think?

Still things change around very quickly in football so only time will tell.

Wenger and Ferguson have shown that long-term success comes with stability and faith in the right man to provide that on the footballing front.

Newcastle, Aston Villa and Spurs have proven that a revolving door to the manager's office makes you an also ran.

I just hope our owners are astute enough to see this.
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Socco
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©Jesus

I agree, but we tend not to spend big :chin:
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Socco
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©Jesus

Oh and Newcastle need to wake up and realise they are just average shit not top of the league :ale:
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