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We're fooked
Topic Started: Jan 23 2008, 09:24 PM (743 Views)
Berethorn Liverpool
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Mister B-man
El Nino
Jan 24 2008, 12:09 AM
Berethorn
Jan 23 2008, 11:02 PM
El Nino
Jan 23 2008, 11:47 PM
Berethorn
Jan 23 2008, 10:33 PM
El Nino
Jan 23 2008, 11:24 PM
Berethorn
Jan 23 2008, 10:20 PM
El Nino
Jan 23 2008, 11:11 PM
yes i know all the broken promises etc etc but we dont know much they have been effected by the credit probs , and as i said lets just wait and what happens before predicting the end of liverpool football club blah blah etc etc

I DO know that if the owners are taking out massive loans secured against the club to fund the transfer budget then the instant we fail to qualify for the CL we will do a Leeds and our American friends will likely walk away scott free and leave us to the tender mercies of Coca Cola League 1.

how will they walk away scott free ??? jesus your crystal ball is good tonight can you give me the lottery numbers for sat ? you are going by the worst case scenario possible and there is nothing to suggest that will happen . league one !!! FFS talk about major over reaction , we are not leeds and wont over spend ourselves but they will try and make us successful to ensure they make a profit .

We wont overspend?

NOW who is using the crystal ball? How can you be so sure when a) we have no idea what the transfer budget may be, b) we don't know if the budget will be working out of cash rather than loans, or c) we haven't a clue what we're looking at in terms of interest repayments on the debt the club is about to be landed with?

These guys don't know how to run a football club. For all their interest in making money if they try and do this hands on they'll crash this club like a 747 with four engines on fire. They'll get burned some but in the end it's the club that will suffer most.

I'm choosing to embrace the worst case scenario in the hope that anything that does happen will look better. I'd rather do that than deny the possibility of relegation in the future over financial and competitive incompetence.

also they know how to run a successful sports team hence taking their hockey team to winning the stanely cup by getting the big players . so they arent daft as you seem to think they are .

Yes but they clearly don't know how to run a f*cking soccer team because they tried looking for a new manager at the first sign of trouble and came up with Jurgen f*cking Klinsmann.

You think I'm overreacting, fine, bully for you. Nothing in the world will make me happier than being proved wrong in this. But kindly don't jump on me just because I'm prepared to consider and post up the worst case scenario.

At least I have at least circumstantial evidence to support this as a theoretical possibility. What do you have in your locker, other than blind denials, to support YOUR case?

Just because these guys are out to make money doesn't mean that they necessarily WILL. Their inexperience counts against them, as does their willingness to ignore sound financial and footballing heads employed at Anfield in favour of popping round the corner to visit some German living in California. If they go hands on and things go t!ts up as a result they'll panic, as we have already seen. Inexperienced people who panic compound a crisis with bad decisions. By the time they get their heads around that it could well be too late. They'll lose money, we'll be fooked, and whoever comes in to pick up the pieces will likely need years to put things right.

Conjecture, speculation, but ALL POSSIBLE based upon the behaviour we have seen so far. So far G&H have backed out of every assurance they have given us. Without a humble apology to fans and a guaranteed cast iron cash transfer budget for Rafa that doesn't rely on loans I am going to be on tenterhooks for likely the next 18 months.

Oh and that ice hockey team that won the Stanley Cup? That happened back in 1999, which was the year they took over and they have done f*ck all since.

and you have no evidence to suggest that this will result in liverpool football club going down the drain . total overreaction - they are businessmen FFS they will want to make a profit they are going to try and run the club into the ground . they are going to build a brand new shiney stadium that will bring money in - to make it successful they are going to have to speculate to accumilate . yes i maybe thinking more positively but im not saying they will guarentee the title - your talking about liverpool football club going down the drain FFS that is an over reaction with no evidence to suggest it will happen. there is worst case scenario and then there is just plainly bloody ridiculous and going out of business is the econd option of those two .has any of their other sports teams gone out of business ??? not that i know off.

I presented circumstantial evidence:

a) backed out of an assurance not to put debt on the club
b) panicked at the first sign of a wobble and looked up a replacement for Rafa
c) demonstrated an alarming lack of experience in football by talking to a no mark German - you can throw a hundred million at a mediocre manager and it wont make him a good manager - and they wont be giving out a hundred million without a major about face.
d) offered us a stadium then had to run away and rescale it
e) their financial ability is being stretched in the current financial market - should the bottom fall out of it any further they - and us - could find themselves in serious shoite.
f) they'll need another £300m to finish the stadium - where's that gonna come from? If it's another loan how will they secure it?
g) the last transfer budget was part of the original buyout loan. Where will transfer money come from this summer?
h) interest repayments will hinge on our performances. We can't afford any more instability because we only have to fail to qualify for the CL once and the financial implications for us could be disasterous, ie like Leeds.

I'm sorry you don't consider this evidence substantial enough, and I apologise if my overreaction offends anyone. But as unlikely as it might seem I can't shake off this bleak feeling that it is POSSIBLE - just as it's POSSIBLE we could still win the title. The issue balances on whether it is PROBABLE or not.

My own personal opinion is so dire because frankly I've seen nothing positive at all to suggest anything could be otherwise. Even tomorrow seems a cynical ploy to bury the bad news over the loan by unveiling yet another stadium design that may or may not once more turn out to be only so much hot air.
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starman Liverpool
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Space is big, No i mean really hugely big
a) backed out of an assurance not to put debt on the club

One year ago - money markets have changed

b) panicked at the first sign of a wobble and looked up a replacement for Rafa
c) demonstrated an alarming lack of experience in football by talking to a no mark German - you can throw a hundred million at a mediocre manager and it wont make him a good manager - and they wont be giving out a hundred million without a major about face.
Yes they panicked no despute about that and why Jurgen god knows

d) offered us a stadium then had to run away and rescale it

They offered a stadium we would like - plan A fell through - many did not like it, plan B many be better on the eye. it will still have the kop the way they / we like and it still will be 75 / 76000

e) their financial ability is being stretched in the current financial market - should the bottom fall out of it any further they - and us - could find themselves in serious shoite.

Yep you are right. We could be under Moores and not have these worries.

f) they'll need another £300m to finish the stadium - where's that gonna come from? If it's another loan how will they secure it?

As i said on another thread - a fixed price to build

g) the last transfer budget was part of the original buyout loan. Where will transfer money come from this summer?

No idea

h) interest repayments will hinge on our performances. We can't afford any more instability because we only have to fail to qualify for the CL once and the financial implications for us could be disasterous, ie like Leeds.

Yes we could fall like Leeds or get better to equal Utd
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chriskamara Wolverhampton Wanderers
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big girls dont cry
El Nino
Jan 23 2008, 11:35 PM
chriskamara
Jan 23 2008, 11:32 PM
it doesnt look promising no matter how you look at it

anything could happen - i doubt league 1 though

i bet the man utd fans thought the same as well . and look what happened . the thing i dont like about them is there treatment of rafa . as long as they provide the funds for players which they did last summer and did during the window and provide the stadium then thts fine for a start but nothing like going to league one etc . they want a successful business.

do you think things look promising?
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El Nino
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chriskamara
Jan 23 2008, 11:52 PM
El Nino
Jan 23 2008, 11:35 PM
chriskamara
Jan 23 2008, 11:32 PM
it doesnt look promising no matter how you look at it

anything could happen - i doubt league 1 though

i bet the man utd fans thought the same as well . and look what happened . the thing i dont like about them is there treatment of rafa . as long as they provide the funds for players which they did last summer and did during the window and provide the stadium then thts fine for a start but nothing like going to league one etc . they want a successful business.

do you think things look promising?

Not 100% sure CK , still a bit worried but nowhere near the depths of what is being said at the moment . the over reaction so far has been quite funny . I know we are going to go out off business or drop to league one etc and we can only wait and see what sort of budget is given during the summer.
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chilli sauce Liverpool
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Premier League
as an aside, the loan is sure to go through as the banks/investors feel that our club will start making big profits when the stadium is complete. the banks have confidence and are willing to take the risk for a long term profit. is this a good sign ?
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El Nino
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chilli sauce
Jan 24 2008, 08:42 AM
as an aside, the loan is sure to go through as the banks/investors feel that our club will start making big profits when the stadium is complete. the banks have confidence and are willing to take the risk for a long term profit. is this a good sign ?

well i would of thought so mate , cant see the bank giving a loan to something they dont think will work .
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chilli sauce Liverpool
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after thinking on it a few days, do we condemn the owners for short sightedness, niavety, manipulation or plain stupidity ? there seems to be have been somewhat of a knee jerk reaction. will the owners learn from thier mistakes. do we give them more time ? i have no answers, but i am also sure that nobody else does, including the journo's who write to provoke and the self appointed voices of the kop.
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El Nino
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chilli sauce
Jan 24 2008, 11:38 AM
after thinking on it a few days, do we condemn the owners for short sightedness, niavety, manipulation or plain stupidity ? there seems to be have been somewhat of a knee jerk reaction. will the owners learn from thier mistakes. do we give them more time ? i have no answers, but i am also sure that nobody else does, including the journo's who write to provoke and the self appointed voices of the kop.

the only thing we can do mate is wait and see and give our full support and backing to the players and manager . like yourself there is no reason why this will turn into the disaster some are predicting .
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The Nutmeg King
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It'll all be fine, there's nothing to worry about at all!!

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El Nino
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The Nutmeg King
Jan 24 2008, 07:47 PM
It'll all be fine, there's nothing to worry about at all!!

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thats the spirit :redscarf:
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The Nutmeg King
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El Nino
Jan 24 2008, 08:48 PM
The Nutmeg King
Jan 24 2008, 07:47 PM
It'll all be fine, there's nothing to worry about at all!!

Posted Image

thats the spirit :redscarf:

Nah, it really isn't.... blind optimism and burying your head in the sand really isn't the spirit...
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El Nino
Unregistered

The Nutmeg King
Jan 24 2008, 07:51 PM
El Nino
Jan 24 2008, 08:48 PM
The Nutmeg King
Jan 24 2008, 07:47 PM
It'll all be fine, there's nothing to worry about at all!!

Posted Image

thats the spirit :redscarf:

Nah, it really isn't.... blind optimism and burying your head in the sand really isn't the spirit...

nt burying head anywhere just not predicting and saying this loan will be the end of liverpool football club seeing us play out life in league one .
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chriskamara Wolverhampton Wanderers
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big girls dont cry
all this finance malarkey confuses me

does this mean the yanks have no personal liability, and if things go tits up the worst case scenario for them would be to lose ownership of the club?
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The Nutmeg King
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chriskamara
Jan 24 2008, 08:54 PM
all this finance malarkey confuses me

does this mean the yanks have no personal liability, and if things go tits up the worst case scenario for them would be to lose ownership of the club?

The Echo reports the deal will see the club take on £105million of debt with Kop Investment (a holding company set up by Hicks and Gillett in the immediate aftermath of last year's takeover) taking on £190million and the American duo putting up £55million of their own money.

So not completely, but largely...
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El Nino
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chriskamara
Jan 24 2008, 07:54 PM
all this finance malarkey confuses me

does this mean the yanks have no personal liability, and if things go tits up the worst case scenario for them would be to lose ownership of the club?

im pretty sure they must have some sort of liability , most of the debt so far going onto their company so that will make then viable for that . the worst case scenario is liverpool going into admin if they dont pay the loan but can people realistically see that ? im pretty sure the guys arent as stupid as risdale etc , im confident there will be money made available for player sales but not chelsea standard , they want to make liverpool succesful to ensure the profits increase so for that they are going to have splash out a bit of dosh .
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chilli sauce Liverpool
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Premier League
chriskamara
Jan 24 2008, 07:54 PM
all this finance malarkey confuses me

does this mean the yanks have no personal liability, and if things go tits up the worst case scenario for them would be to lose ownership of the club?

for them yes, they have no money in, well not a lot, its like buying a house with someones elses cash, if they cant afford the repayments, the banks i assume will take the club off them, they never paid in the first place so have nothing to lose. but the banks seem confident that they are good for the loan. and the banks don't really want the hassle of having to run a football club, that may be a bit simplistic and possibly all bollocks but its my understanding of it all.
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El Nino
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i know people say its different but its like the bank giving glazers that 600 odd million to buy manure , they know the clubs will make the money to pay off , they arent going to give the money if they think its going to go pete tong
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chriskamara Wolverhampton Wanderers
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big girls dont cry
El Nino
Jan 24 2008, 08:05 PM
i know people say its different but its like the bank giving glazers that 600 odd million to buy manure , they know the clubs will make the money to pay off , they arent going to give the money if they think its going to go pete tong

utd are a cash cow, miles ahead in terms of squad strength, gate receipts and merchandising

for these reasons it is a hell of a lot easier to manage this kind of debt imo

just compare gate receipts for the two clubs for starters, utd must dwarf liverpool over the course of a season - there is a way around it, which is being addressed ie new stadium, but where the hell will the money come from?

i guess my point is, can liverpool offer the same assurances as utd that things wont go all pete tong? i dont think so tbh
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El Nino
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chriskamara
Jan 24 2008, 08:20 PM
El Nino
Jan 24 2008, 08:05 PM
i know people say its different but its like the bank giving glazers that 600 odd million to buy manure , they know the clubs will make the money to pay off , they arent going to give the money if they think its going to go pete tong

utd are a cash cow, miles ahead in terms of squad strength, gate receipts and merchandising

for these reasons it is a hell of a lot easier to manage this kind of debt imo

just compare gate receipts for the two clubs for starters, utd must dwarf liverpool over the course of a season - there is a way around it, which is being addressed ie new stadium, but where the hell will the money come from?

i guess my point is, can liverpool offer the same assurances as utd that things wont go all pete tong? i dont think so tbh

thats why they need the stadium built then it becomes a cash cow mate , the bank wouldnt give the loan if they didnt think there was going to b e any intrest for them and the yanks arent going to do this unless they think there is a profit somewhere for then , if they want to sell they have to make it a sucess to make it an attractive opportunity or if they want the club to make profits they are going to have to shell out to get the ball rolling .
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The Nutmeg King
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El Nino
Jan 24 2008, 09:27 PM
chriskamara
Jan 24 2008, 08:20 PM
El Nino
Jan 24 2008, 08:05 PM
i know people say its different but its like the bank giving glazers that 600 odd million to buy manure , they know the clubs will make the money to pay off , they arent going to give the money if they think its going to go pete tong

utd are a cash cow, miles ahead in terms of squad strength, gate receipts and merchandising

for these reasons it is a hell of a lot easier to manage this kind of debt imo

just compare gate receipts for the two clubs for starters, utd must dwarf liverpool over the course of a season - there is a way around it, which is being addressed ie new stadium, but where the hell will the money come from?

i guess my point is, can liverpool offer the same assurances as utd that things wont go all pete tong? i dont think so tbh

thats why they need the stadium built then it becomes a cash cow mate , the bank wouldnt give the loan if they didnt think there was going to b e any intrest for them and the yanks arent going to do this unless they think there is a profit somewhere for then , if they want to sell they have to make it a sucess to make it an attractive opportunity or if they want the club to make profits they are going to have to shell out to get the ball rolling .

We're not going to be the cash cow that Man Utd are, not for a long long time if ever. Their global brand is way ahead of us, and their team are at the moment as well.

We need to spend on top notch players to get to that level, and then do more. Otherwise we're playing catch-up indefinitely.

That's the bottom line.
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