| Welcome to Altezza Club Of NZ/Australia. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. http://s4.zetaboards.com/lexusaltezzaclub/topic/1148393/1/#new |
| *updates!* Rebuilding The 3sge For Boost; Killed it standard, Stronger Round 2! | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 7 2009, 03:19 PM (4,567 Views) | |
| Leiden | Feb 7 2009, 03:19 PM Post #1 |
![]()
NZ, Whangarei
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Went for a drive out to the beach today, about 3/4 of the way out I started noticing this tapping sound coming from the engine, Drove all the way back in and went to a mechanic who said it could be a tappet, or something caught in the valve seal stopping it from closing... Could one of the shims have fallen out? It happened right after giving it a boost, engine missfired and left a bit of black smoke behind... Well thats when I think it happened..but its running a bit rich and probably flooded on the sudden change to WOT. Just gave it an oil change yesterday with Castrol GTX 15W-40, could that have caused it? Was fine after the oil change... Anyway the tapping is pretty loud and increases with engine rpm. Doesnt seem to affect the engines performance, still drives like its sweet... What could it be? |
| Project Thread | |
![]() |
|
| senza | Feb 7 2009, 04:20 PM Post #2 |
![]()
Tauranga
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Have you been able to isolate where the sound is coming from? I.e. louder at the block/certain cylinder or tappet cover etc? Also can you describe the sound a bit more - is it more of a deep clunking sound or tinny? The reason I ask this is that if it's more of a deep clunking sound it could be rod knock where as a loose wrist pin would be more of a tinny tapping sound. I'd say these two would be less likely than a tappet or something being caught in the valve seal but they are two other things that could have happened from what you've described. |
|
Current - '02 Ford Courier tow beast Building - 2JZ S13 NZGT circuit car Ex - '98 RS200 6MT Ex - '00 RS200 4AT Qualitat | |
![]() |
|
| Leiden | Feb 7 2009, 04:54 PM Post #3 |
![]()
NZ, Whangarei
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
It sounds like tapping a marble on a window, its in rythm with the injectors, rather than the crankshaft, Its clear and defined, changes as rpm changes, doesnt get sluggy or random like rod knock would... Just taken the valve cover off, checking clearences... Seems to be coming from the rear of the engine, No. 4 cylinder on exhaust side I think? But yea, it just happened all of a suden, didnt get louder and louder over time...? How much clearence would it need between the bucket and the camshaft to make a loud ticking? |
| Project Thread | |
![]() |
|
| Leiden | Feb 7 2009, 07:14 PM Post #4 |
![]()
NZ, Whangarei
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Just made a video: Tapping And another one: Tapping 2 |
| Project Thread | |
![]() |
|
| carolyn-mike | Feb 8 2009, 10:01 AM Post #5 |
|
Stock
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Doesn't sound to good dude. If you hold a really big screwdriver to your ear and put the other end to the engine you will hear it clearer and find it easier to locate. hope it's a simple fix
|
|
Sharp as a marble Blunt as a knife | |
![]() |
|
| greeneyes | Feb 8 2009, 11:36 AM Post #6 |
|
Targa Master
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
$10 says broken ring! The tapping is the piston rocking at TDC. If it broke into two big pieces and they have been riding up and down then you might still have a ring land on the piston. If it broke near an end and snapped 10% of the ring off (like my Datsun) the small bit will jam and scour the bore as well as chopping a piece out of the piston. The last one I broke was while sitting in neutral at a traffic light.. The video sound is pretty 'fuzzy', so if you're lucky its still in the valve train. The rings I've heard break are quite a sharp tapping. Don't drive it until you know what it is! |
|
The Girl's KE70- http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/ How NOT to build a rally car- http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/ | |
![]() |
|
| Leiden | Feb 8 2009, 12:28 PM Post #7 |
![]()
NZ, Whangarei
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Would a broken ring cause serious blowby? I havn't noticed any serious blowby or oil coming out the breather hose... If a ring did break would I notice shavings of metal or whatnot in the exhaust ports? I kind of don't want to take off the head at this stage, dont want to have to buy another couple of head gaskets ![]() Its a sharp ticking sound, stays even and constant with the rpm's, not random or munted sounding, Removing the coils one by one didnt do anything, still makes the tapping regardless of which coil I removed, sparkplugs all look ok, no damage on any of them! Clearences on the camshaft-to-buckets are fine, so I dont think anything is stuck in one of the ports, engine still runs and boost fine... Would I find metal shavings in the exhaust ports or sump if it was a broken ring? I suspect that it could be the camshafts, I remember when I did the camshaft bearing caps my torque wrench wouldn't go as low as the torque spec, so I torqued them to the lowest setting which was about 10nm more than the factory spec, Could this have caused slightly less clearence and when I switched to the thicker engine oil starved the camshaft bearings? I also noticed that one of the idler pulleys for the timing belt has play in it, about 1mm forward and back, and a little side to side |
| Project Thread | |
![]() |
|
| Leiden | Feb 8 2009, 02:25 PM Post #8 |
![]()
NZ, Whangarei
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Just checked the exhaust manifold and turbo, no signs of material from the piston or engine, just lots of soot! Started it without the turbo manifold on, still has the knocking sound coming from somewhere, So would that eliminate the rings being broken? |
| Project Thread | |
![]() |
|
| greeneyes | Feb 8 2009, 02:30 PM Post #9 |
|
Targa Master
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Possibly, or possibly not... If it's one compression ring broken the other would still be there. It won't be an oil ring, they're multipiece and aren't affected by increased boost.
Nope- Nothing comes out unless it burns down the whole side of the piston or burrows in through the side wall..
This suggests that it is not in the tappets or valve train at all. If you ran the cam bearings I don't think it would tick, and if they were bad enough for it to tick then you would see a change in the clearances as the cam moved up and down. Start whoring it around the garages asking mechanic's opinions, or pull the sump off and drop number 4 piston out of the bottom. I don't know if these pistons fit past the crank, but it saves lifting the head. Maybe Cory has some ideas.. He blew up a couple of turbo engines!!
Nope- it will tap even w/o any loading on as the sound comes from the piston rocking as it goes over TDC. If you run it w/o #4 coil on it will still tick, maybe not as loud. |
|
The Girl's KE70- http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/ How NOT to build a rally car- http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/ | |
![]() |
|
| Leiden | Feb 8 2009, 04:01 PM Post #10 |
![]()
NZ, Whangarei
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Should I get a compression test done? |
| Project Thread | |
![]() |
|
| turbo tezza | Feb 8 2009, 04:13 PM Post #11 |
|
Sacked
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Yea last time I did mine, there was a loud knocking from no.4. It was found to be bits of turbo stuck under an exhaust valve on no.4, so the piston was hitting the valve at the top. It disappeared after a while, only because the piece fell out. Still there was a sooty mark on the head where the valve hadn't been closing properly. But thats no good to you. If the valves weren't closing properly you would see it in the clearances. I would be thinking along the same lines as as Keith. I would guess bottom end? Possibly a dropped valve seat. I'm not sure just throwing ideas around. Corey |
|
Location: Christchurch....and got a job driving - yay!!! My Car build-up | |
![]() |
|
| Leiden | Feb 8 2009, 04:22 PM Post #12 |
![]()
NZ, Whangarei
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Here's a couple more video's, hopefully the sound is a little better: Tapping 1 Tapping 2 Is sounds like its coming from the front of the motor, by the timing belt, and if not there the camshafts, when I try put my head down the side of the motor by where the pistons would be I can't hear it as good, I'm going to check my clearences again, all I did was use a razor blade, I didnt actually use the proper tool ![]() Would say... aluminium flakes from cutting intercooler pipe cause such a problem, I blew each pipe out before installing, but there might have been some I didnt get? |
| Project Thread | |
![]() |
|
| xnickx | Feb 8 2009, 05:37 PM Post #13 |
![]()
^^ You may thank me ^^
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Hmmm alu flakes arent a good thing, I've heard a few horror stories with alu flakes completly stuffing engines but I'm sure it would have dont it ages ago and not just now? Also I have heard a few stories, I havent known anyone personally that alu flakes have ruined an engine, and I'm somewhat not sure if it would damage your engine that much as alu is pretty soft anyway... I washed my alu pipe out with a waterblaster after cutting the hole for the SSQV prior to welding on the flange to ensure there were no flakes. Sorry to hear what has happened buddy ![]() All the best to getting it back on the road I would say get someone to take a look eh, may cost $$$ but another engine would probably cost more |
Contacting me for parts![]()
| |
![]() |
|
| Distrb | Feb 8 2009, 06:21 PM Post #14 |
|
Nuts
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
on the videos you posted it sounds like its run a big end or a dropped valve. i'd do a compression test first off. make sure, obviously, when you test it that the engine is up to operating temperature, otherwise the readings will be all over the show. that will show if you've dropped a valve, or like greeneyes said, broken a ring, as that cylinder will be well down on compression for a ring, or virtually none for a valve. worst come worst, strip it down and forge it
|
![]() |
|
| Celica RA45 | Feb 8 2009, 11:20 PM Post #15 |
|
Lowered
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
im thinking bigend bearing or 2 other things come to mind seized bearing in water pump or alternator as well so dissconnect alt belt 1st to see and do a comp test |
![]() |
|
| Leiden | Feb 9 2009, 12:25 AM Post #16 |
![]()
NZ, Whangarei
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Isn't a bigend more of a deep rumble you could feel throughout the vehicle? I'll try taking the alternator and p/s belts off, what would be the best way to check the waterpump? Gotta try and find a compression tester, don't really want to drive it and kill it more
|
| Project Thread | |
![]() |
|
| greeneyes | Feb 9 2009, 12:10 PM Post #17 |
|
Targa Master
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Faaarkk!! Just strip it! That sounds terrible! You're right, bottom end bearings are a deeper rattle. I changed the oil & put a new filter on the KE70, and the bearing rattle at startup is gone. The filter on there did not have an anti-drain valve and it sits upside down, so every night it drained to nothing and the engine RATTLED for the first 15seconds... Quite a different sound! The only other one I can think of that would rattle but not affect tappet gap would be if a valve seat came loose and moved up and down a little each time the valve moved.... but that's much less likely than a ring. Just drop all the belts off, the engine will run for a few minutes without a water pump and not suffer. Record that one too... |
|
The Girl's KE70- http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/ How NOT to build a rally car- http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/ | |
![]() |
|
| Leiden | Feb 9 2009, 12:20 PM Post #18 |
![]()
NZ, Whangarei
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The timing belt runs on the water pump so I dont think I'll be able to do that one, Am going to do a compression test soon, dry & wet... Will let you know ![]() Only managed to do a dry test, but hey... Here's the digits: #1: 192psi #2: 199psi #3: 192psi #4: 175psi Looks like #4 is a little lower than the rest, could be the broken ring? |
| Project Thread | |
![]() |
|
| Leiden | Feb 9 2009, 03:11 PM Post #19 |
![]()
NZ, Whangarei
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Its not the Alternator or P/S Pump, How would I check the water pump? Do you think if something was wedged into the valve seal would that cause knocking and a slightly lower compression value? Aparently its hard to snap a ring, and its more likely the ringland thats cracked, because a broken ringland would drop the compression alot more than 175psi, but a cracked ringland wouldnt make a knocking would it? |
| Project Thread | |
![]() |
|
| senza | Feb 9 2009, 03:48 PM Post #20 |
![]()
Tauranga
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I don't mean to sound like a prick and please don't take it the wrong way but imo just pull it to pieces now that you've done compression tests. Then you'll know exactly what's wrong and be up and running sooner.
|
|
Current - '02 Ford Courier tow beast Building - 2JZ S13 NZGT circuit car Ex - '98 RS200 6MT Ex - '00 RS200 4AT Qualitat | |
![]() |
|
| Leiden | Feb 9 2009, 03:52 PM Post #21 |
![]()
NZ, Whangarei
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Its just that I dont want to go and pull the entire thing apart to find out it was really the water pump or dodgy valve, I'll have a look at a few more things such as sump/conrod bearings then just bite the bullet and take the head off
|
| Project Thread | |
![]() |
|
| greeneyes | Feb 9 2009, 04:22 PM Post #22 |
|
Targa Master
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Yeah, drop #4 out the bottom and see! Has anyone dropped a piston out the bottom on a 3S?? I don't know if they will fit past the crank.. madaltezza?? You might have to drop the crank, take out #4 and see stick a torch up there to see the valves. How about the big screwdriver stuck on the ear trick...haha- I just had a look at Greeneyes and there is no room to touch the engine with a screwdriver!! In the old days you could touch the block and the head.. see what you can do- for a few bucks you can buy a stethoscope with a metal probe, which does a great job of listening to rattles as it gets more places than a 'driver. http://www.tradekey.com/selloffer_view/id/1467143.htm $17.50 ebay in Aussie If its a loose valve seat then it will be head-off time, altough you might see something when you take the intake & exhaust manifolds off. Haha- water pump- yeah I forgot it was on the cambelt! Still, I can't see it being a water pump |
|
The Girl's KE70- http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/ How NOT to build a rally car- http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/ | |
![]() |
|
| Leiden | Feb 9 2009, 06:39 PM Post #23 |
![]()
NZ, Whangarei
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I guess I'll find out tomorrow ![]() I'd have to take the gearbox off (again) to get the crank out wouldn't I? Anyone have the torque numbers for the bottom end, manual only covered top end work... |
| Project Thread | |
![]() |
|
| Celica RA45 | Feb 9 2009, 07:16 PM Post #24 |
|
Lowered
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
pistons have to come out the top so head will have to come off .1 question does it feel like it has lost power also if it lost a valve seat it would take the head off the valve in a second oil wont be a problem as i use 5 w 60 syn oil look take motor to tdc on no 1 take cam belt off and check all of the pulleys and the cam belt tensioner as well and with belt off turn water pump and see if it is seized at the same time .i have heard this noise before but cant put my finger on it at the moment 1 other idea check the cam buckets to make sure they havnt seized in the haed as well also check fly wheel bolts and clutch and also harmonic balancer it sounds more a rubbing noise like a bearing has jammed or a fan blade it rubbing agianst steel part ,shit it could even be the windage tray bolted to the sump you will have to go trail and error im afraid start with no 4 buckets since comp is down as well and look at the spark plug as well on that cyl glenn ps if i remember will let you know |
![]() |
|
| Black Tez | Feb 9 2009, 07:35 PM Post #25 |
![]()
The ORIGINAL Black Tez!!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Might be a dumb suggestion, but if noise is top front, would these VVTi bizzo's on the front of the camshafts make that kind of noise if they were not getting any oil???? Low compression on one cylinder might just be a red herring unrelated to the noise.![]() Image Hosted |
|
ALTEZZA RS200Z- LEXUS WITH ATTITUDE! NOW UPDATED TO IS250 LTD F-SPORT | |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Engines • Intakes • Exhausts · Next Topic » |






![]](http://z4.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)











2:13 AM Jul 12