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*updates!* Rebuilding The 3sge For Boost; Killed it standard, Stronger Round 2!
Topic Started: Feb 7 2009, 03:19 PM (4,570 Views)
robman
Stock
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From what i can hear in the clip it sounds like it is about the same freq as the piston not a valve eg a tap for each revolution of the crank not 1 in 4 for a valve. This sounds like when my 351 in my boat decided to run a big end. Was the piston "floating" at the top of its travel and the rod tapping up and down on the crank. I'd pull the sump and check that, you really don't want to wreck your crank if you don't have to.
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Leiden
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NZ, Whangarei
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Celica RA45,Feb 9 2009
07:16 PM
pistons have to come out the top so head will have to come off .1 question does it feel like it has lost power
also if it lost a valve seat it would take the head off the valve in a second
oil wont be a problem as i use 5 w 60 syn oil
look take motor to tdc on no 1 take cam belt off and check all of the pulleys and the cam belt tensioner as well and with belt off turn water pump and see if it is seized at the same time .i have heard this noise before but cant put my finger on it at the moment
1 other idea check the cam buckets to make sure they havnt seized in the haed as well also check fly wheel bolts and clutch and also harmonic balancer
it sounds more a rubbing noise like a bearing has jammed or a fan blade it rubbing agianst steel part ,shit it could even be the windage tray bolted to the sump
you will have to go trail and error im afraid start with no 4 buckets since comp is down as well and look at the spark plug as well on that cyl glenn
ps if i remember will let you know

Nope, doesn't feel like its lost any power at all, when I drove it back from the beach it still ran fine, not any power loss that I noticed anyway...

Im guessing if the valve seat went then the bucket on that valve would be hard up against the camshaft, I havn't checked the clearences properly with a feeler guage, but I was able to slip a piece of paper (cheap I know) under each one okay, and I rotated the buckets and they all turned smoothly in their slots.

I will check all the pulleys tomorrow and also check the sump/conrod bearings for play, It really doesn't sound like its coming from the rear of the motor, how would the clutch/flywheel bolts make that kind of sound? I made sure they were torqued a little over spec (5NM) and used threadlock on all of them!

How would I check the harmonic balancer? Just grab it and try move it around?

The sump does have a little bit of a dent in it from bottoming out, but I never noticed the sound with that damage...

I was planning on getting some twink and putting that on the harmonic balancer to try and find out if the tapping was in time with the pistons or cams, or even a bit of plastic against the little notch to see if it clicked at the same time as the knock


@Greeneyes: Do you still think it could be the rings with those compression numbers? (192, 199, 192, 175psi)
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Celica RA45
Lowered
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ok the tap noise has me leaning now to water pump impeller tapping up agianst something .if it was a piston with a ring land broken and it jammed onto the piston it would have bent a valve by now .and in the videos the motor isnt rocking so no bent valve to speak of
another idea start it up and put the clutch in and tell me if the noise dissapears
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Leiden
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Hey,

I have tried the clutch, pressing the clutch pedal in and even riding it to put constant load on it and the sound remains,

I dont think it would have a broken ring land or snapped ring, compression would be alot lower on that piston wouldnt it and if it was cracked but still in place then why would it make the knocking sound?

I have been told that its more likely a ringland rather than a ring as the rings are metal and the ringland alloy which isn't as strong, if it was detonating enough to damage the ringland/rings wouldnt the spark plug have traces of shiney specs where the detonation blew tiny bits off the piston?

I'll find out more tomorrow anyway, definately going to check the waterpump, authough it hasnt overheated, and temperature was normal even while driving it with the knocking.
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greeneyes
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Targa Master
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Quote:
 
@Greeneyes: Do you still think it could be the rings with those compression numbers? (192, 199, 192, 175psi)

If one of the two rings had broken, the 2nd ring would keep the compression up, so 175 would be likely with a broken ring.

Quote:
 
more likely a ringland rather than a ring as the rings are metal and the ringland alloy
Rings are brittle and snap acorss the ring. Then the piston is not held in the bore properly so it rocks from one side of the bore to the other at TDC, & makes a tapping knock. If it breaks in half, its pretty stable and doesn't destroy the land for a while. If it breaks into small bits they jam and burn the land out and that's when you get tiny bits of aluminium everywhere.

I assume your piece of paper would show that there is a tappet gap, but won't show if there is too much gap. If the seat slipped down it would give a big tappet gap, but its likely that the valve head would jump off or the piston smack it, as noted above.

That video sound is a little fuzzy for a ring really, too much rubing sound, although other things point towards it. I wouldn't think a rubbing/scraping like a water pump bearing collapsing would give the knock in the video.

See if you can get a stethoscope and pinpoint the noise more.




The Girl's KE70-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/
How NOT to build a rally car-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/
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Leiden
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NZ, Whangarei
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I think I'm just going to have to pop the head off, bit the bullet as they say :(

I have robman lined up for some pistons and rods, if I end up doing the one piston I might as well do the rings in all of them I guess, do you think it would be best to replace the conrod bearings while I'm there too?

Dont have a massive amount of cash at the moment, $300ish to get it fixed up, moving to Hamilton so this is a bit of a setback :(

I wonder how much it would cost to get the pistons machined, that way I can use the 1x metal gasket instead of 2, and use the extra $80 bucks to get a 16cc dish machined into them...
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Leiden
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NZ, Whangarei
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I think it might be a conrod bearing, found some flakes of metal in the sump, they look gold, but are actually shiney/silver with no oil on them,

Posted Image Posted Image
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carolyn-mike
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Stock
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Pull the oil filter off and hack it apart and see what's in there!
Sharp as a marble
Blunt as a knife
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Leiden
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NZ, Whangarei
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So your saying if its recent there would be bits of metal flakes it in the oil filter rather than stuff that's been sitting there for some time?
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Leiden
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For Sale -- Sniff :(
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Stephen
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Altezza Club of Australia
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Leiden,Feb 10 2009
10:20 PM

Hoping it's not too serious. Sad to see you selling after putting so much of your time into it :(
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Leiden
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Yea I know,

Just want to get something factory turbo this time around, looking at a Supra MK3 with the flip up headlights, or possibly Nissan R32/180SX...

Really want to stick to Toyota's though, love em :P
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greeneyes
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Targa Master
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Just strip it and fix the bottom end!- It should have been done when you turbo'd it really, just to guard against the extra stress doing some thing like this.

For the cost of rings and bearings you are giving away any chance of enjoying the results of all the hard work you did in the conversion.

If you can do the work yourself its just hours really, the parts are cheap compared to paying a garage to do it all...
The Girl's KE70-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/
How NOT to build a rally car-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/
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cpufix
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Paraparaumu, Wellington
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Don't give up so easy, you've put a lot of work and money into the turbo.
Just fix it and enjoy.

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Leiden
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NZ, Whangarei
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Okay you all have sparked a little hope in me yet!

I'll be taking it out to my Mums (because she has a garage lol) and stripping her down, rebuilding with ACL bearings, 3SGTE pistons and rods, new rings...

I've found a guy who might be able to machine the 3SGTE pistons with valve relief's and take some out of the piston skirt to lower compression properly, not sure if this will weaken the piston and actually make them weaker than the factory ones?

Tossing up between ST185 & ST215 pistons & rods, apparently the ST215 engines are weaker? I'll have to look into that more,

Anyway, if your fitting new rings do you have to get the cylinder bores re-honed? I remember when I last had the head off they still had a cross-hatch pattern in them! I read that you have to de-glaze them?
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Distrb
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Nuts
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Leiden,Feb 11 2009
11:37 AM
Okay you all have sparked a little hope in me yet!

I'll be taking it out to my Mums (because she has a garage lol) and stripping her down, rebuilding with ACL bearings, 3SGTE pistons and rods, new rings...

I've found a guy who might be able to machine the 3SGTE pistons with valve relief's and take some out of the piston skirt to lower compression properly, not sure if this will weaken the piston and actually make them weaker than the factory ones?

Tossing up between ST185 & ST215 pistons & rods, apparently the ST215 engines are weaker? I'll have to look into that more,

Anyway, if your fitting new rings do you have to get the cylinder bores re-honed? I remember when I last had the head off they still had a cross-hatch pattern in them! I read that you have to de-glaze them?

yep, honing is a must when using new rings, will allow the new rings to bed in properly. you'll also want a new gasket set as well. i'd go genuine with all bits if you can (unless you have to grind the crank, in which case you'll have to use acl oversize bearings)

I think machining will make the pistons weaker, but if you do decide to go that way, i have a set of gen3 3sgte pistons and rings for sale for reasonably cheap if you want them (genuine toyta, brand new)
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Leiden
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Is honing something that you can do your self?

How much weaker? Like weaker than factory 3SGE pistons?

Why the factory bearings over ACL?
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Muzza
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Hamilton
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Yes you can hone it yourself.
You dont want to weaken pistons if at all possible. You will be more gutted if one fall's to bits after you've just rebuilt it
Muzza
HKS RS Induction.
Tom's lightened flywheel,TRD Clutch,TRD Clutch Cover
Apexi SAFCII,Gizzmo Shiftlight-Launch conntroller,Pivot speedmetre-x
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Distrb
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Nuts
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Leiden,Feb 11 2009
12:21 PM
Is honing something that you can do your self?

How much weaker? Like weaker than factory 3SGE pistons?

Why the factory bearings over ACL?

you can hone it yourself. you need to be careful as because honing will change the size of the bore and affect your tolerances. all depends how much you need to hone each cylinder

i dont know how much weaker as i've never done it. But i would think that a piston with a thinner head thickness would be easier to melt holes in, and more likely to fall apart when the temps get up, than one that is still in its factory spec

Factory bearings fit right first time, easily available and do just as good a job for the same money as ACL, mostly a personal preference for me.
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Leiden
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Okay,

So that blows that idea out of the water... mmm

I just dont have the cash for forged pistons, want to do it as cheap as possible, but reliable...

Maybe I should just stick with stock pistons and rods, and the 2x stacked metal gaskets then and get a proper tune?

Would go with 2JZ pistons, but you have to get them machined anyway, and ontop of that you have to machine the rods, and ontop of the rods you have to machine the crank :(
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Distrb
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Nuts
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Leiden,Feb 11 2009
12:46 PM
Okay,

So that blows that idea out of the water... mmm

I just dont have the cash for forged pistons, want to do it as cheap as possible, but reliable...

Maybe I should just stick with stock pistons and rods, and the 2x stacked metal gaskets then and get a proper tune?

Would go with 2JZ pistons, but you have to get them machined anyway, and ontop of that you have to machine the rods, and ontop of the rods you have to machine the crank :(

yeah you have to get 2jz pistons machined, but the main thing they have over the 3sgte piston is that you dont have to machine any dish into them, just a wee bit off the skirt for oil squirter clearance.

getting the crank done is easy as pie anyway. once its all apart its no hassle at all, just a bit of $$

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Leiden
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I'm thinking I have about $400-500 to get it up and running again, which isn't much when you think about it :(

How much to get the crank rebalanced after taking 1-2mm off the counterbalance for the 2JZ pistons?
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Distrb
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Nuts
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Leiden,Feb 11 2009
12:58 PM
I'm thinking I have about $400-500 to get it up and running again, which isn't much when you think about it :(

How much to get the crank rebalanced after taking 1-2mm off the counterbalance for the 2JZ pistons?

cost me $200 incl freight to get it all balanced. had to send the front belt drive pulley, cambelt pulley, keyways, bolt, crank, flywheel, pressure plate, flywheel bolts and pressure plate bolts to get all balanced together (as they're all connected)

or you could hunt around and see what a short block in good nick is worth these days? i spent about 6 months hunting for one, and found one for $300.

then bolt your existing head onto it, swap it in, and keep going (but get a proper tune!) meanwhile strip down your now spare shortblock and build it up properly when funds allow.
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Leiden
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Is it possible to get away with not balancing the crank? Or just sending the crank alone assuming the rest of the system is fine?
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Distrb
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Nuts
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Leiden,Feb 11 2009
01:14 PM
Is it possible to get away with not balancing the crank? Or just sending the crank alone assuming the rest of the system is fine?

no,

cutting corners to save you $$ now will cost you more $$ in the long run
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