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Aaargh! Greeneyes Won't Start!
Topic Started: Jul 8 2011, 06:51 PM (7,839 Views)
greeneyes
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Targa Master
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Well- the Mrs hauled Greenyes out and went up to fetch the daughter from Uni, a day's drive away. She returned the next day and parked in the drive while they unloaded, and I'm sure I rolled the car down into the garage. A week later we went to go out and it wouldn't start.

Turns over fine. Engine check light stays on.

Smell of unburnt fuel.

Tries to start, the cranking revs increase if you hold the key on and pump the accelerator, but won't catch. The accelerator feels very loose with no feedback pressure.

So- I popped a plug out and it has a fat spark, and obviously fuel from the smell.

I shorted the diagnostic plug and while all the light flash the check engine light flashes at a constant rate.

I pulled the airbox out and checked the contact plugs on the throttle body, and also noted the cable does nothing for about 1/3 of the accelerator, then it manually opens the butterfly up to half open or so by the time the cable is 100% open. So the electronic throttle does the rest.

Theories??

-One of the three mechanisms on the throttle body, the TPS, the APS, or the throttle motor is not working.

- The crank angle sensors are not working. Less likely as my Wingroad that had the CAS pack up at least backfired randomly as you cranked it.

Any more theories??

Resolutions-

Is there a way to test the throttle motor, the TPS and the APS with a multimeter and see which is working and which not??

Suggestions??

(This is in Orange NSW....

"Take it into your Toyota dealer" will get you deleted faster than you can think! :lol: )




The Girl's KE70-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/
How NOT to build a rally car-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/
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cpufix
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Paraparaumu, Wellington
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Water in the fuel.
Blocked fuel line
You say its been resting in the garage for some time ?
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greeneyes
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Targa Master
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Only until she took it up North. It usually sits around for a month or two without getting used. It was a week after she got back that we went to take it out.

Not blocked fuel line I think, I can smell unburnt fuel when I crank it. Maybe that points to crank angle sensor more than throttle body problems- the fuel is there but the spark isn't there at the right time to burn it..
The Girl's KE70-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/
How NOT to build a rally car-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/
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Leiden
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NZ, Whangarei
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First and foremost check the water temp sensor, if that's buggered it would be very hard if not impossible to start the vehicle cold. Make sure that the key is in the ON position when testing.

You can test the crank angle sensor output,

NE+ : Black / White Stripe
NE- : Blue

You should get 36 or so pulses for every rotation of the crank shaft, turn it manually by hand.

You can also test the cam angle sensors the same way, different number of pulses but you get the idea.

To test the TPS:

E2: Brown
VTA: Yellow / Green Stripe
VTA2: Red / Black Stripe

To test the APS:

E2: Brown
VPA: Green / Black Stripe
VPA2: Blue / White Stripe

Test between earth and each of the signal wires, the output voltage should increase smoothly as the throttle opens.

I'd check that water temp sensor first, you can put a 10kΩ resister across the terminals to fake a cold start condition. If it fires up then you know its the temp sensor.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!
Project Thread
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greeneyes
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Targa Master
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Fair enough- first up, can someone take a $10 multimeter and measure the resistance across the two wires within the temp sensor.

I measured 4.5Kohm set on the 20K scale at about 2 or 3deg in the garage... bloody freezing anyway!. Neither go to earth.

Posted Image
The Girl's KE70-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/
How NOT to build a rally car-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/
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greeneyes
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Targa Master
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Ah, the wonderful interwebs..

Quote:
 
Here is what I am using for a 3SGE... in Celcius
CLT
0C - 5500
20.6C - 2500
90C - 250


So, temp sensor OK Leiden?
The Girl's KE70-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/
How NOT to build a rally car-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/
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nz_climber
Lowered
[ *  *  * ]
Have you checked all the fuses? (engine bay and and internal kick panels) especially checking the fuse for the electronic throttle and sensors
Building a Beams 3sge powered Mcgregor 7.

Check out progress (or lack of..) at http://www.lotus7.co.nz/forum/viewtopic.ph...957eb3663a85224
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cxgpwr
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Stock
[ *  * ]
Might not be lighting the spark plugs under compression?, wouldnt have expected this to happen but could have, check for rings around the coil packs, also what do your spark plugs look like?
You could attempt to re-set the ecu and get it to re-learn the idle as it might be a bit iffy for whatever reason(car electronics are mysterious)
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greeneyes
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Quote:
 
car electronics are mysterious


Truer words were never spoken!

Took out plugs and checked- coils look fine (whew!) but I might as well get new plugs on Monday anyway.

I had the battery disconnected for an hour a few days back and it seemed to reset everything.

Would someone like to grab their GF and have her turn the ignition on while they listen to the throttle motor under the bonnet. I notice now the mine whines and when I opened the throttle manually the noise changed.

Something I'd never noticed before, probably because I'd never had someone else turn the key on while I had my head under the bonnet.

In the video you can clearly hear the click of the key turn at about 11sec in, and the double-click of a relay. Then the throttle motor whines lightly until I open the throttle by hand, when it changes to a louder noise. I closed it then opened it again.

Is it meant to sound like that??

http://youtu.be/Eka966WDxZQ
The Girl's KE70-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/
How NOT to build a rally car-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/
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E910
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MOTUL 300V
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Have you tried another battery in the car or a jump start? I know mine wouldn't start even though it was still showing about 9-10v. Starter relay just clicked at me
アルテッツァ RS200-Z 6MT
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Leiden
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NZ, Whangarei
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4.5K is about right, this link has a graph of resistance vs temperature.

Have you tried starting it without the MAF sensor plugged in? Is there fuel pressure at the rail? It doesn't have diesel in it? LOL

That sound from the throttle motor is normal, at least mine was the same, just a quiet hum until the throttle is moved then it gets a little louder and stays like that.
Project Thread
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greeneyes
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Quote:
 
That sound from the throttle motor is normal, at least mine was the same, just a quiet hum until the throttle is moved then it gets a little louder and stays like that.


Ok, I'll check the resistance on there, but assume it is working OK. I'll chase the TPS and APS next in case the CPU isn't opening the throttle correctly.

The battery is fine, it turns over for a long time without quite catching and running, and without backfiring.

It smells of unburnt fuel and a couple of the plugs were noticeably wet when we pulled them yesterday. New plugs tomorrow.

I haven't done a compression test, the drop to the plug hole is too long for my guage, although it sounds OK. Another option would be that we have fuel, we have spark and we have a faulty VVTi holding valves open....
The Girl's KE70-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/
How NOT to build a rally car-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/
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Leiden
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NZ, Whangarei
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If the valves were getting held open you would definately notice it when cranking, can you get some compressed air into the cylinder via the plug hole and do a leakdown test?
Project Thread
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greeneyes
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Not easily, but a mate has a compressor. I'd need to make up some fittings. I got a cold over the weekend and haven't done anything more. Hopefully I can check the electrics of the throttle body tomorrow.

I'm sure the throttle pedal is more floppy when cranking than it used to be!

Its freezing in the garage, usually around 6-8deg max. Queensland sounds good at this time of year!
The Girl's KE70-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/
How NOT to build a rally car-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/
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Leiden
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NZ, Whangarei
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Does the throttle plate move normally when you turn the throttle linkage manually by hand? You'll notice it has a slight amount of lag. Do this with the key in the ON positition so the throttle motor is operating. If that looks okay then you can rule out the throttle body, if the APS was shot it wouldn't know what position the linkage is in and if the TPS was shot then it wouldn't know what position the throttle plate was in. Definatly worth testing the sensors though.

Have you checked the MAF output voltage, should increase a little when cranking, one more thing worth eliminating

Project Thread
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greeneyes
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OK, I've check continuity in most of the circuits by pulling the A & B plugs off the computer and testing various wires, so power goes off to a sensor and back to the plug.

Its no problem to write down the resistances of each circuit, but I can't find a reference for them as garages these days have diagnostic tools.

However- These are all complete circuits, so these sensors should work.

crank postition sensor NE+ to NE-
Inlet cam sensor G2+ to NE-
Exhaust cam sensor GEX to NE-

Injector #10 to IG2
Injector #20 to IG2
Injector #30 to IG2
Injector #40 to IG2

Coil IGTN 1 to earth
Coil ION 1 to earth
Coil IGTN 2 to earth
Coil ION 2 to earth
Coil IGTN 3 to earth
Coil ION 3 to earth
Coil IGTN 4 to earth
Coil ION 4 to earth

Throttle position VC to E2
Throttle position VTA to E2
Throttle position VTA2 to E2
Accelerator position VPA to E2
Accelerator position VPA2 to E2

Inlet temp THA to E2
MAF VG to EVG

Throttle motor M+ to M-
Throttle clutch CL+ to CL-

Here's the bit of the wiring diagram I used.

Posted Image
The Girl's KE70-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/
How NOT to build a rally car-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/
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greeneyes
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Targa Master
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So I hooked it all back up and tried to start it again. Turns over quickly, occasionally coughs but won't quite start. Not the smell of raw fuel this time.

I bridged the diagnostics wires but the engine check light just flashed at a constant rate. However, this time I looked at the Xmas tree on the dash carefully and found these lights-

Engine check- flashes constantly
Door open-flashes constantly, same rate
Snow-flashes constantly, same rate
Airbag-flashes constantly, same rate

Seat belt- flashes constantly, but slower than above.

Charge light- constantly on (picture of battery)

Trac off- flashes code 4 then 3
ABS- flashes code 4 then 1

So I'd better go & look THOSE up!!

VIDEO
The Girl's KE70-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/
How NOT to build a rally car-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/
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greeneyes
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Targa Master
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If it was an ST215 with a 3S-GTE and the traction control light read the errors then error 41 would be the TPS.
The Girl's KE70-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/
How NOT to build a rally car-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/
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cxgpwr
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Stock
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Not ideal at all, but you have a nice colourful dash!
Im feeling that there are several issues with your car, with several faults lodged in the ecu, I would disconnect battery and leave it for at least half an hour or longer, put battery back on, switch ignition on but dont start and see what the lights do?
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Leiden
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NZ, Whangarei
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Sounds like all the electrics are fine, you mentioned it's turning over faster than normal? Have you compression tested it?

Another thing to try and it sounds silly but hook up a 12v lamp to each of the injector plugs and crank the motor, they should flash in the firing order (1342), do the same for the coils, if thats all good then at least you know the injector/spark timing is good.
Project Thread
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Celica RA45
Lowered
[ *  *  * ]
it hasnt jumped teeth on the cam belt as this is what happened to my sons 1ggeu motor 3 teeth retarded on exhaust and 2 on the inlet idler shat it self
easy to check look at your belt at the top see where it is sitting if it is hard back to the cams ,this will be youtr problem took me a day to work it all out
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greeneyes
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Targa Master
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cxg I disconnected the battery overnight a month or two back, and it cleared the engine error lights. I didn't try and start it again while I mucked around with the electrics, and today when I tried it again the lights came back.

Leiden the injectors go straight to earth, so I can check those with a lamp OK. I don't know what happens inside a coil, you can see in the wiring diagram they have an IGT wire in and an ION wire in. Then two earths out, one through IG2 and one straight to earth I assume through the spark plug. Any idea which to try?

Celica I did look at that today, I just happened to stop cranking it within a few degrees of TDC and check the crank and both cam marks. I have thought of a jammed VVTi gear killing the compression, so I must get hold of my mate with the long compresion gauge.

Overall-

the coils look clean but if it wasn't firing all cylinders it would act like it does.

I can hear the fuel pump & usually smell unburnt fuel so we assume injectors are OK

The sensors are not burnt out, but to check them further I need to swipe a oscilloscope from somewhere.

I think the compression is OK, but I will check. There is also an electrical testing of the TPS and APS circuits on the throttle body I will try. Naturally they're not for an Altezza, I think they're for a Camry!

Eventually I'll start on the local mechanics and see who wants to drop around home with a diagnostics tool.
The Girl's KE70-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/
How NOT to build a rally car-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/
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wesley
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touge lover
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may be a stupid suggestion but what about push start? making sure of course that theres nothing wrong with the motors compression.

2003 IS200 Sport Luxury 4AT SOLD
2002 WRX STI V7 6MT SOLD
2000 Zenki RS200 Z Etd 6MT SOLD
1999 Zenki RS200 Z Etd 6MT SOLD - Wakefield Park P.B. 1:16.1
2006 BMW 130i 6MT RIP
2002 Integra Type R 6MT - Wakefield Park P.B 1:13.9
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greeneyes
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Targa Master
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haha! Crossed my miind Wez, but its downhill to the garage from the road.

The KE70 will haul it up there when I'm desperate.
The Girl's KE70-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407-the-girls-ke70/
How NOT to build a rally car-
http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/64027...ld-a-rally-car/
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wesley
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touge lover
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
greeneyes,Sep 6 2011
09:13 AM

The KE70 will haul it up there when I'm desperate.

a sub 1 tonne car pulling a 1.3 tonne car with a chain or rope haha this I would have to see if its possible

(Haha! this KE70 has POWWAR...

http://www.rollaclub.com/board/topic/42407...__1#entry445727 )

2003 IS200 Sport Luxury 4AT SOLD
2002 WRX STI V7 6MT SOLD
2000 Zenki RS200 Z Etd 6MT SOLD
1999 Zenki RS200 Z Etd 6MT SOLD - Wakefield Park P.B. 1:16.1
2006 BMW 130i 6MT RIP
2002 Integra Type R 6MT - Wakefield Park P.B 1:13.9
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