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My thoughts about EoM
Topic Started: May 15 2011, 03:43 PM (67 Views)
Dinah May Anderson
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It's late in the day for me, so I will be brief.

I had not planned on posting my thoughts about EoM right now, but I would rather wake up to reactions based on facts than wild speculation brought about by circumstances beyond my control.

EoM will not die. It will not be deleted. It may be closed some months from now to new posts, but that is not decided yet. What you have posted here will remain here. What you post from now on will remain here and be accessible as long as the server that holds this information runs.

But I will open a new site soon that is close to this here site in many regards, yet different from it, as I am tired of being told that a site I spent countless hours on to set up is not really my own. I tried to strike a balance between what the old EoM was and what I would do with a site, and it just isn't working. I should have made rules that could actually be enforced to keep things in line, and I failed to do that. Instead of being an arbiter and neutral judge I became part of the problem (aka: drama) as I never set up as much of a framework for the site as I should have done. I thought everything would work out fine and went with the flow, even if the flow went in the wrong direction. Adding more rules now, after the site has run for nine months, would be just plain wrong and change everything everyone has become accustomed to - or so I believe.

This does not mean that EoM means nothing to me, or that I am willing to abandon it. This site is the first thing I see in the morning, before I light my first smoke and sip my first coffee, and it is the last thing I see in the evening, when I am already in my PJs. I love this site, and I love the roleplaying here, but I think too many things have spiraled out of control, there is too much drama here, and as admin I should be on top of it. But I failed - big time. The only way I can see to rectify this problem is to divorce myself from this site and make a fresh start someplace else while allowing everyone - and perhaps myself - to treat EoM as just a sandbox that is not troubled by a pesky little admin.
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Deveraux Dixon
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It's late in the day for me, so I will be brief.

I had not planned on posting my thoughts about EoM right now, but I would rather wake up to reactions based on facts than wild speculation brought about by circumstances beyond my control.


I assume that you're referring to me, lol. But I'm glad that you posted this, regardless of my opinion or how it differs from yours.

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EoM will not die. It will not be deleted. It may be closed some months from now to new posts, but that is not decided yet. What you have posted here will remain here. What you post from now on will remain here and be accessible as long as the server that holds this information runs.


That's good to hear, I guess.

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But I will open a new site soon that is close to this here site in many regards, yet different from it, as I am tired of being told that a site I spent countless hours on to set up is not really my own.


Whoever has told you that EoM isn't your site needs to shut it. I've always seen this as your site, because you took up the mantle of admin when ours was fumbling and being unprofessional during circumstances that previously put this site in stasis. I've always supported you as being admin, even through our differences. I don't think that you need a new site to do this, and the people who say it's not your site need to not be listened to.

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I tried to strike a balance between what the old EoM was and what I would do with a site, and it just isn't working. I should have made rules that could actually be enforced to keep things in line, and I failed to do that. Instead of being an arbiter and neutral judge I became part of the problem (aka: drama) as I never set up as much of a framework for the site as I should have done. I thought everything would work out fine and went with the flow, even if the flow went in the wrong direction. Adding more rules now, after the site has run for nine months, would be just plain wrong and change everything everyone has become accustomed to - or so I believe.


I disagree with the last line. There's nothing wrong with you discussing changes with the members and refitting the guidelines right here. Simply date and note that we kept the site in the old way because the old admin was here and we were paying reverence to them.

My problem, really, is that you're trying to change all the rules to what YOU want so drastically. Even though everything on the site isn't the way that you would want it to be, there SHOULD be a balance. You just seem to be confused about what the balance is supposed to represent. It shouldn't be a balance between what YOU want and what the site IS; it should be a balance between what YOU want and what the MEMBERS want. Because once you lay out the premise of the site, its direction within those guidelines is up to the members. Since this site has already been established and members have already latched onto it, it's only fair that you discuss and use members to help balance out some of those changes. This is supposed a be a world that we're making together, not a world that YOU make that WE just play around in. It takes a collective to produce a successful site, and you whiplashing everyone into doing only what you want without any regard to what we're accustomed to or like is ridiculous and tyrannous. You started off as a member of this site just like the rest of us--so it's only fair that we all work together to decide what aspects of the site we will and will not keep when you revamp it.

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This does not mean that EoM means nothing to me, or that I am willing to abandon it. This site is the first thing I see in the morning, before I light my first smoke and sip my first coffee, and it is the last thing I see in the evening, when I am already in my PJs. I love this site, and I love the roleplaying here, but I think too many things have spiraled out of control, there is too much drama here, and as admin I should be on top of it. But I failed - big time. The only way I can see to rectify this problem is to divorce myself from this site and make a fresh start someplace else while allowing everyone - and perhaps myself - to treat EoM as just a sandbox that is not troubled by a pesky little admin.


I never thought that EoM didn't mean anything to you. If that was the case, I would have left a long time ago. You obvious work hard for this site, even if everyone doesn't agree to the things that you do or some of the decisions you make. That's fine. No one will ever agree with everything you do, and it's up to both parties to realize and accept that, not just one side of it.

As far as the drama - that happens because of people. While admining helps to curb some of it, you can never, ever eliminate all drama from a site at all unless you get rid of the people who are causing it in the first place. Things have settle down here now, between the individuals who were feuding in the first place, and there's no need to bring up the drama now considering that. If anything, bringing the drama into attention now is just to drudge it back up. Moving to a new site, if those people go with you, won't change anything.

EoM has always been a sandbox--even through the drama--and while sometimes disagreements with you can be irritating, you're not a pesky little admin. Anyone could be upset with you for a decision you make at any time. Any number of people could see you as pesky even though you aren't, even on the new site, even if you make a hundred new sites.

My overall point is that you can revamp the site without moving it. We've all been through enough already with the old EoM going down, having improvements and whatnot. We have a lot of time and effort here, and just because you're ready to up and move your home to somewhere else doesn't mean that everyone else is. You're not just tweaking EoM, you're making lots of changes without asking anyone to vote or anything like that, like we've already been doing. The suggestions that we've seen so far are completely off kilter compared to EoM, especially with race changes and all that. You changing the site so drastically does, in a way, mean that EoM is going to die, because no one is going to RP the way that they used to. Their characters will be made invalid, useless. And it's not fair to do that when there are so many people who want to stay here.

As I've said before--if you really want a site that different from EoM, then you should go ahead and pursue that as your own project. But it's not fair to take what people have already grown to see as EoM throughout changes, take the name and slap it on somewhere that's completely different character-wise, without giving members the option to stay here. You're saying you love EoM, but your changes are indicating that there are quite a few fundamentals about the site that you don't like.

With the new rules that you've posted in your suggestions thread, Dev wouldn't work, Nyssa's character wouldn't work. Brinley wouldn't work, Kadai wouldn't work, Ilzt'rak wouldn't work, among others. And I don't think that's very fair. I really don't. You say that you don't want to change things nine months after being here, but would it be more fair to start a new site, and make people feel out of place by allowing them to RP characters that others wouldn't be allowed to make by grandfathering them in? This is a lose-lose no matter what.

So why can't we just do this the peaceable way, and just discuss the changes that you want to make and make or not make them?
Edited by Deveraux Dixon, May 15 2011, 04:36 PM.
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Dinah May Anderson
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Whoever has told you that EoM isn't your site needs to shut it.

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You started off as a member of this site just like the rest of us--so it's only fair that we all work together to decide what aspects of the site we will and will not keep when you revamp it.

Connect the dots, Dev.

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With the new rules that you've posted in your suggestions thread, Dev wouldn't work, Nyssa's character wouldn't work. Brinley wouldn't work, Kadai wouldn't work, Ilzt'rak wouldn't work, among others. And I don't think that's very fair. I really don't. You say that you don't want to change things nine months after being here, but would it be more fair to start a new site, and make people feel out of place by allowing them to RP characters that others wouldn't be allowed to make by grandfathering them in? This is a lose-lose no matter what.

I am not forcing anyone to do anything. I said it before and I will say it again: EoM will no die. If you want to have a blast here, be my guest. I am getting tired of repeating myself so I will repeat this just this one more time: I have no intention of closing down EoM. I am not going to force anyone to abandon this site and make a new character elsewhere. Period. Full Stop. End Of Story (in the figurative sense of the words).

You are also jumping to conclusions, as what I posted about the new site were my initial thoughts - an early concept if you will. The whole things is still a work in progress, which is one of the main reasons I have not advertised it here yet. But I think all the characters you named would work on the new site - if by "character" we take what a person is about.

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But it's not fair to take what people have already grown to see as EoM throughout changes, take the name and slap it on somewhere that's completely different character-wise, without giving members the option to stay here.

And I said I would do that, exactly when? You can accuse me of whatever you like - but accuse me of things I have actually said and done, please.
Edited by Dinah May Anderson, May 16 2011, 03:30 AM.
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Deveraux Dixon
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[I would like to remind you that my previous post was from before we had our IM conversation.]

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Connect the dots, Dev.


If you want to be a good admin, Dinah, and I'm sure you do, compromising with your members doesn't make a site any less yours. In fact, it makes you a better admin, because no one likes a person who simply Lords their ideas over others. When you make an RPG, your ideas are the jump off point ONLY. Once you put your ideas out there for another person to touch and read and feel, and inspire, you cannot help what it inspires in other people. You cannot help what other people see as enjoyable or not enjoyable when they take a message or theme or way of doing things away from your original plan.

As an admin you have to compromise with your members. Regardless of you being the "originator" of content on a site, you are still a member. Having authority doesn't necessarily make something yours, either, and any idea you let other people touch (for example, by way of online RPG) ceases to be only your idea the moment someone contributes to it (by way of posting, for example, to an online RPG of your creation).

If your idea of perfect admining is to assert your idea over others all the time simply so that you can feel you own the concept, then online RPing is not for you--you need to go write a book instead, or something, so that you can completely own most if not all that you jot down on each page.

EoM IS your site physically--you own the domain, you're the admin, and you do have the authority. However, it is also everyone else's creatively. Whether or not you stay here or go somewhere else will never change that. If and when you go make your own site and you leave here it'll be the same scenario over and over. If all you do is wave your "originator" cock around at everyone (not saying that you will, but other people do it so I'm simply naming a well-known behavior), you'll only stir up resentment because of inability to compromise. A good admin knows not to be too possessive over a concept that they've put up online. Anything that goes up publicly is in the hands of the public--because the public has access to it. Someone could copy it, for example, or send it to some else, or, in the case of our site, steal images, or character profiles, or what not. You never know. I've seen it AND had it happen to members of my own site, so I'm not just spouting bullshit. I'm speaking from what I know and have seen.

My point is, you collaborating with everyone else to make changes to the site doesn't make the site less yours. You being a member here like everyone else is NOT what makes the site less yours, because that's the case wherever you go, and if you don't agree, I honestly think your logic is screwed. Badly. Why put up an idea for people to mold and change if you don't want it to change? You've contributed a lot of good things to EoM, and helped make it better, so what on earth is the issue of possession about? I just don't get it.

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I am not forcing anyone to do anything. I said it before and I will say it again: EoM will not die. If you want to have a blast here, be my guest. I am getting tired of repeating myself so I will repeat this just this one more time: I have no intention of closing down EoM. I am not going to force anyone to abandon this site and make a new character elsewhere. Period. Full Stop. End Of Story (in the figurative sense of the words).

You are also jumping to conclusions, as what I posted about the new site were my initial thoughts - an early concept if you will. The whole things is still a work in progress, which is one of the main reasons I have not advertised it here yet. But I think all the characters you named would work on the new site - if by "character" we take what a person is about.


You weren't making things clear before I spoke to you in IM. You gave me an actual date and because you did so, I was under the impression that you were going to actually close down the site--as opposed to you giving me a date where your "changes" (I assume you creating a new site for yourself, then, if EoM is not closing) were taking place.

We got our wires crossed on that one, but you were being very vague about it.

As far as your definition of "character" is going, I'm afraid I'm not going to let you get away with twisting it. Yeah, I'm sure anyone's character could fit anywhere if you only account what the character is "about". But that's not what I'm referring to here and you know it. People like their characters here on EoM, including physical attributes and abilities, so I'm afraid that they would not fit in on your site with the guidelines you listed earlier.

But that's neither here nor there, since you've made it clear that you're not closing EoM and no one is obligated to move.

In the case with this, I think that it would have been less alarming if you had just waited until it was more than just a work in progress before you began posting about it.

Especially when EoM is settling down for a series of eruptions from drama volcanoes, it's not exactly comforting as a member who tries to keep up with things to see a post that says (and I am indeed exaggerating for the benefit of conveying how your statements echoed when I read them): Oh, well, you know, hypothetically guys, if I made a new site would you come with? Without very little information whatsoever. I'm sorry, but a flag goes off in my head when people deliberately ask "hypothetical" question, especially admin because they're NEVER really hypothetical. What's worse, you wanted reactions by PM only, which isn't fair because everyone RPs on this site and unless someone wants to keep their opinion secret there's no reason for other people not to be aware of the opinion of a move privacy aside--and again, because we all knew when answering that it wasn't hypothetical, because it almost never is. Then you amended your post to include guidelines that are EXTREMELY different from the EoM we've established, and afterwards added, Well I guess it's not so hypothetical LOL.

How else am I supposed to interpret that? I know that:

1 - You're thinking about moving the site (because you asked if we were willing to move if you re-vamped the site somewhere else, so I have no choice but to assume you're talking about moving THIS site somewhere else, not another one).

And, 2 - If you do move the site, for some reason that I CANNOT bring myself to understand, you're interested in changing how EoM works (because, as established above, it was obvious that you were talking about THIS site, and not any other one, so of course the changes would have to apply to THIS site and how it operates).

1+2= So Dinah's moving the site to revamp it with rules that would be impossible for the members here to transfer their characters over, and she wants at least some people to go with her (or else you wouldn't have asked who would be willing to go).

I think that the above is a logical assumption, even if was incorrect in context at the time. I'm not a mind reader, as I stated earlier in IM. There's no way that I could have known that your idea was developing into a "second site" that was also separate and somewhat unrelated to EoM. This was only made worse by our correspondence and you asserting a date where this site would close or be used for archiving purposes only, which means that you've either gotten a lot of people to agree to leave with you for the "second site" or you're assuming that a lot of people are going with you to the "second site"--either way--so this one won't be needed. I don't know if you were still thinking things over in your head, or if my sudden panic about the state and future of THIS site simply pressured you into giving an incomplete answer, but you definitely gave me a closing date and definitely referred to this site being used for archiving.

1+2+3=So Dinah's moving the site to revamp it with rules that would be impossible for the members here to transfer their characters over, and she wants at least some people to go with her (or else you wouldn't have asked who would be willing to go). And then she's going to close this site for archiving although our characters as they are here couldn't possibly be used for direct reference to the new site because of new guidelines.

Again, perhaps wrong within the context of things, but considering what's listed above I think it's a logical conclusion considering you were being so vague about plans (even if it's because you yourself aren't sure about them). What would you have thought about the information listed above?

Also, as I said in IM, I can't possibly guess why doing this and having your "own" thing is so important to you, as everything public ceases to be only yours when you post it to the public and let them create and therefore manipulate things associated to your content, but more power to you if that's what you want to do.

I just that this whole thing was handled pretty badly on your part as far as your steps to introduce information.

I'm not quite sure why, but the way that you interpret things doesn't really seem to mesh with how other people interpret them (I can really only speak for myself, but I've seen and heard discussions with other people in the Cbox that can also attest to misunderstandings because of differences in how people see things, including but not limited to Dratz, Shar, Izzy and even Modrid, to a certain degree. I really don't like naming names, but you seem to hate it when I'm "vague" by not doing so...so there you go).

It might just be me, though; I'm also capable of being off-kilter with people and interpretations. That is usually not the case, however, which is why I'm listing it as a point. I'm not going to rule it out though, because you know, to err is human. And I'm certainly not divine.

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And I said I would do that, exactly when? You can accuse me of whatever you like - but accuse me of things I have actually said and done, please.


You're right. I was completely wrong about that piece and I certainly both apologize for and retract the statements being referred to.
Edited by Deveraux Dixon, May 16 2011, 06:22 AM.
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Dinah May Anderson
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Your post may well require a long, well-thought out reply, but I am not sure if I can manage one today. Maybe I stayed up too long last night, maybe it's the change in weather or low blood pressure, but one way or the other I find it difficult today to fully concentrate on anything for more than five minutes (if that much). So instead of a paragraph-by-paragraph reply I'll just answer with a few general thoughts and ask your understanding for it.

Yes, my timing could have been better and I could have made my intentions a lot more clear. For not doing the latter I apologize to everyone. But as unfortunate as the timing was/is - given that things have indeed calmed down after a spat of drama - perhaps it was inevitable precisely because of said drama. It just took some time for my thoughts to come to fruition, thoughts that I think began shortly before Rhea left us.

I think I won't have to remind you of her behavior in the cbox in the days before she said her farewells. If she hadn't left when she did I might well have asked her to do so, based on how many people she attacked for no obvious reason. I was also tempted to just ban her from the site for at least a few days, but then I felt I had no grounds for it, as she didn't exactly break any rule.

Shortly after that I got into more drama and not exactly as an innocent victim but much more as an instigator of it. Again it made me wonder if some tighter rules might not be in order. In this case not to control what I saw as unacceptable behavior in others but to set limits for my own idiocy, establish rules someone could smack me over the head with if I stepped out of line.

From both sprang forth general thoughts about forum rules and character rules. You may not like either, but I believe having a framework better defined than what we have here at EoM now is no hindrance to creativity. You may also remember what I posted about the changes I made vis a vis the old EoM, and why. I see having a few more rules - or somewhat tighter rules - as just another step in the same direction.

But I also felt that tweaking this site here any more would not sit well with those people who actually share their opinion openly with others and discuss things. We have about two dozen people here, and when it comes to debating site policy and matters like that it's always the same handful of people. 80% of our members don't voice an opinion one way or the other in most cases, so it wasn't too difficult to guess how things would go down, and the PMs I received have pretty much confirmed it, with one against, one in favor, and one somewhere in the middle. You are right. The opinion of forum members should matter - and it does matter to me. But sometimes I do wonder why I should care if almost no one can be bothered to voice an opinion. Based on that I could have easily said "screw the silent majority, here is how things will be handled from now on", but imposing on everyone like that would have been just plain wrong in my opinion, so I decided to start something else and leave EoM as it is now.

You don't have to like it, you don't have to accept it, you don't have to play at the site I am putting the finishing touches to. I don't even have any idea yet if it will garner a viable member base or not. Maybe it will, maybe it won't.

Bottom line is, I want to give this new place a try. Not as a replacement to EoM, but as a parallel universe based on a similar premise. I'll still continue posting here, if and when I have something to reply to, which isn't exactly much these days.
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Dinah May Anderson
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Dinah May Anderson
May 16 2011, 10:02 AM
We have about two dozen people here, and when it comes to debating site policy and matters like that it's always the same handful of people. 80% of our members don't voice an opinion one way or the other in most cases, so it wasn't too difficult to guess how things would go down, and the PMs I received have pretty much confirmed it, with one against, one in favor, and one somewhere in the middle. You are right. The opinion of forum members should matter - and it does matter to me.
I think I should elaborate on that some.

I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with not participating in discussions. Not every topic matters to everyone, and some people are just happy to have a place where they can post without getting dragged into protracted debates or worrying about site rules and whatnot. My intention was not to slam those people.

The point I was trying to make, even if I did not make it adequately, is that sometimes I wonder how a site can be shaped by the participation of its members if it's always the same few people who express their opinion? How much can listening to people mean when 10% of all people can constitute a majority opinion?
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Deveraux Dixon
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In response to the above (I'm not quoting all of that, sorry).

Changes to framework and changes to the way a world is shaped are two different things. I'm not talking about a rule change here or there about conduct; I'm talking about you specifically defining the races that exist on the RPG as a whole. I don't think that only having humans practice magic or any of the other changes that you've suggested for your site are stifling creativity in general--but I think that they DO stifle creativity in regards to the context of this site, EoM, the way that it is now. If you make a site with your guidelines and people like it, that's cool; but your site will have started off with those rules, and not suffer drastic changes like this site would if you tried to convert it (not that you are, but I'm saying this for comparison). Moving characters from here to your site would definitely be stifling, because it's obvious that the universe on your site and the one here are going to operate very differently, parallel or not.

-----

Even if only 10% of the base is commenting, that's what you have to go with. It's discouraging, to be on a site and see people complain, but that's precisely why you are admin and why it's important that you are the admin.

On most sites, there is not a large majority that comments on the direction of the site. And even if you have a very large base of members, that simply means that you'll sort the opinions into three categories: idiots who don't know what they're talking about (probably about 30%), people who decide not to pay attention or comment on those sorts of things, for whatever reason (probably about 50-60%), and those who comment who actually keep up with your site and the direction it's moving towards (10-20%).

I'm sorry, Dinah, but that's pretty much the breakdown online, where you don't have to know a person or talk to them if you don't want to. It would be much more efficient if we either knew each other IRL or played together at a table like in traditional RPs, but that's not what we're doing here.

What's important is that you take into consideration the people that do speak up. As the admin, it's your job to bridge the gap between site operations and members when the space is lacking a connection. You've spoken to the members that care; sometimes you can badger the ones that don't to see where their heads are at, and sometimes you can't. When you can, use the information you get to help shape the changes along with those who spoke up. When you can't, then it's your job to make a decision based on what you HAVE heard.

You're not omnipotent, and no one here expects you to be. If you're doing your job as admin to the best of your ability, you shouldn't have to worry about the lack of people responding. People RP here, you notify them of changes as they happen and you ask for their opinion before making major game changes. That's the best that you can do. If someone or some people don't reply, then too bad--they knew what they had to do to get their opinion across and they didn't do it. That's unfortunate for them, because you took the initiative to leave the option for them to explore their opinion. It's one of those cases where you have the right to use your authority as admin, because you can't make everyone respond. If someone is unhappy with something, they can either accept the way that things are, whine about it even though they're not voicing their opinion, or eventually get sick of things not going the way that they want to the point where they leave or say something to you about it.

Is it your business which one they choose to do? Not really, because if you gave them the chance to truly express their opinion it's no longer your responsibility. If they didn't say something when they had the chance, then tough nuts to them because you're not going to wait three months for them to get tired of being reminded of posting to voice their feelings. Better luck next time.
Edited by Deveraux Dixon, May 16 2011, 10:47 AM.
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