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Ukraine; Ukraine & Russia - Putin backers & protesters
Topic Started: 18 Dec 2013, 09:59 PM (3,469 Views)
SuffolkRoyal
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What irritates me about the whole Ukraine/Russia conflict is that the west is jumping up and down condemning Russia for assisting the rebels, but they were quite happy to allow the legitimate government of Ukraine to be overthrown by, err, rebels! And that was simply because the original Ukraine government favoured closer ties with Russia, while the, then, rebels wanted closer ties with the west.

Its hard to believe that western governments have got so much wrong with their foreign policy over the last ten years, but still make the same mistakes.
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Owlish52
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RR Foreign Legion - Across the Pond - View from Texas
Putin has one-upped Hitler regarding support for 'popular movements' - Hitler never sent German troops (thinly) disguised as 'rebels' into countries he was intending to destabilize and dismember. I am sure Putin only wants a fair and impartial election in eastern Ukraine, and considering the recent disturbances in the area, he'll even provide spare voters! I do not believe the West sent in 'rebels' to overthrow the prior Ukrainian government; the Russians have sent active military units into Ukraine.

I fully expect an 'independent' Donbass 'state', under the 'protection' of Russia, as the West lacks the will to effectively intervene to stop Putin's not-so-passive aggression.
"It could have been worse with Hillary..." - Owlish52
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SuffolkRoyal
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Thats a bit of a flimsy comparison Bill. Hitler invaded Poland.

But hey, if Obama says jump, Cameron will say how high.
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Clyde1998
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SuffolkRoyal
31 Aug 2014, 05:56 PM
Thats a bit of a flimsy comparison Bill. Hitler invaded Poland.

But hey, if Obama says jump, Cameron will say how high.
If the USA + Allies go to war with Russia + Allies, we might as well get in our nuclear bunkers now.
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SuffolkRoyal
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Clyde1998
31 Aug 2014, 05:59 PM
SuffolkRoyal
31 Aug 2014, 05:56 PM
Thats a bit of a flimsy comparison Bill. Hitler invaded Poland.

But hey, if Obama says jump, Cameron will say how high.
If the USA + Allies go to war with Russia + Allies, we might as well get in our nuclear bunkers now.
Yep, it could get as serious as that. Anderson Shelters won't be any good if this blows up into full scale war.
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Owlish52
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RR Foreign Legion - Across the Pond - View from Texas
SuffolkRoyal
31 Aug 2014, 05:56 PM
Thats a bit of a flimsy comparison Bill. Hitler invaded Poland.

But hey, if Obama says jump, Cameron will say how high.
Hitler did indeed invade Poland with uniformed troops, but that was an open act of war. He never sent uniformed military into the Sudetenland when he destabilized and dismembered Czechoslovakia in 1938; he did sent the German army into the remains of Czechoslovakia to establish the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia and the 'independent' Slovak Republic of 1939. Putin has sent paratroopers (Oh, what's that you say? They were lost... OK - Russian paratroopers can not read maps. I'm not believing that, sorry.) and troops 'on leave' into Ukraine (Crimea and Donbass), as well as military material and supplies. Not loose at all, IMO. Next move will be a formal move of Russian troops to 'prevent Ukraine from descending into chaos as the country is breaking apart on ethnic lines'.

But there is IMO no chance that the West will react with anything more severe than economic sanctions. Russia will 'accept' the further dismemberment of Ukraine (that Crimea thing is already gone). It's marginally possible that he'll pause there, but more likely there will be more 'unrest' in other parts of Ukraine that the Russians will need to 'help resolve', especially if Ukraine makes any further approach to NATO. The Donbass 'state' will incorporate into Russia via a nice fair Russian-administered vote, and the Independent Republic of Ukraine will form under the guidance and protection of it's brotherly and fraternal Russian friends.

Obama will not say 'jump', or even 'boo'. He'll 'profoundly regret the steps the Russians have unilaterally taken', slap on a few more sanctions, reflecting his 'serious position on this matter', and that will be that.
"It could have been worse with Hillary..." - Owlish52
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daib0
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Here's something I hadn't thought of



BBC News

Ukraine war pulls in foreign fighters

French, Spanish, Swedish or Serb, the foreigners fighting for both sides in east Ukraine's bloody conflict hail from across Europe and come with a bewildering array of agendas.

The non-mercenaries among them are motivated by causes which can stretch back to the wars in the former Yugoslavia - and even further still, to the Spanish Civil War of the 1930s.

Russia is the elephant in the room, dwarfing any other foreign nationality, although it is increasingly hard to disentangle Russians fighting as volunteers from regular soldiers allegedly deployed on covert missions.

Ukraine's pro-Russian rebels like to talk up their foreign volunteer fighters, presenting them as latter-day International Brigades fighting "fascism". Meanwhile there has been some debate in Kiev on the wisdom of creating a Ukrainian "Foreign Legion".

Here we look at some of the foreign fighters by country of origin, in a phenomenon which, in a small way, mirrors that of young Muslims from Britain and other parts of Europe travelling to the Middle East to fight in its wars.



BIG article thereafter: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28951324


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SuffolkRoyal
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Well whatever the rights and wrongs of the Ukraine conflict it just proves that we were all a lot better off, and the world a far safer place, when the iron curtain was still in place.
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daib0
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SuffolkRoyal
2 Sep 2014, 10:21 PM
Well whatever the rights and wrongs of the Ukraine conflict it just proves that we were all a lot better off, and the world a far safer place, when the iron curtain was still in place.
we were maybe, but I visited and worked in Poland & USSR in the 80s and the despair was terrible amongst everyone normal. OK, it's terrible in Ukraine, but look at the Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary now - and you can see smiles. Something I didn't used to see in the 80s ...
Royals Rendezvous - a specialist and friendly Reading FC fan forum
Cello man... VIDEO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEVmGOEMJLE&t=12s Please share !
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bmb
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Invading AFCB Fan & sole member of the Viktor Kassai fanclub!
daib0
3 Sep 2014, 12:14 AM
SuffolkRoyal
2 Sep 2014, 10:21 PM
Well whatever the rights and wrongs of the Ukraine conflict it just proves that we were all a lot better off, and the world a far safer place, when the iron curtain was still in place.
we were maybe, but I visited and worked in Poland & USSR in the 80s and the despair was terrible amongst everyone normal. OK, it's terrible in Ukraine, but look at the Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary now - and you can see smiles. Something I didn't used to see in the 80s ...
Hungary is a beautiful country but pretty unstable in many ways. Corruption is rife, the politics in football there make FIFA look like a bunch of choirboys! New football stadiums are being built for all of the NB1 teams, who funnily enough all have rich chairman with close links to Viktor Orban seemingly. That would be the same Viktor Orban who has a world class stadium in his back yard - literally! A 3000 stadium in a village with less than half that number living there... Contracts are won on a who you know basis but no money goes into health or education, where it is desperately needed, it all goes into football - well stadiums anyway. Nothing at grass roots level, nothing on coaching, nothing on refereeing, not a lot on wages but Fradi have a magnificent 22,000 seater stadium with their highest crowd around 12,000 & they are the countries biggest club. Financially it is still a very poor country for the average person. Wages are low. Food though is very cheap, pick sausage & palinka well worth a visit there!! Lots of rural areas have no electricity save from a generator, they're not connected to grids. Water can come from wells and and you can forget phone lines or internet! You can however pick up an acre or 2 in a rural area for just a couple of thousand pounds! There's high racism & homophobia although it has an overall low crime rate. Kispest's first game of the season, there were white supremacy flags openly on display amongst the opposition fans & the authorities never batted an eye. It's still finding it's feet granted and overall the Hungarians are very happy and friendly people, Communism is still though fairly evident, just under a different name.
AFCB fan in peace!
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