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| Ukraine; Ukraine & Russia - Putin backers & protesters | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 18 Dec 2013, 09:59 PM (3,467 Views) | |
| daib0 | 30 Jan 2015, 07:56 PM Post #111 |
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Inter-Forum Gamemaster!
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Battle rages for key Ukraine town Ukrainian troops and pro-Russian rebels trade heavy tank and artillery fire in and around Debaltseve, a strategic town in eastern Ukraine. Ukrainian troops and pro-Russian rebels are exchanging heavy tank and artillery fire in and around Debaltseve, a strategic town in eastern Ukraine. There are reports - not independently confirmed - that the rebels have seized the nearby town of Vuhlehirsk. Many civilians remain trapped in Debaltseve, while others - including people with shrapnel wounds - have managed to reach the town of Artemivsk. Russian media say shellfire has killed seven people in the city of Donetsk Current division of territory ![]() |
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| daib0 | 7 Feb 2015, 09:11 AM Post #112 |
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Inter-Forum Gamemaster!
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Leaders to put peace plan to Ukraine The leaders of Russia, France and Germany agree in Moscow to work on a peace plan they will put to Ukraine's president on Sunday. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31185027 |
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| daib0 | 9 Feb 2015, 09:56 AM Post #113 |
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Inter-Forum Gamemaster!
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West caused Ukraine crisis - Putin The crisis in Ukraine was caused by the West, says Russian President Vladimir Putin, as he works on Franco-German proposals to end fighting. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31289051 |
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| daib0 | 9 Feb 2015, 09:58 AM Post #114 |
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Inter-Forum Gamemaster!
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Figures ** 5,358 people killed and 12,235 wounded in eastern Ukraine ** Fatalities include 298 people on board flight MH17 shot down on 17 July ** 224 civilians killed in three-week period leading up to 1 February ** 5.2 million people estimated to be living in conflict areas ** 921,640 internally displaced people within Ukraine, including 136,216 children ** 600,000 fled to neighbouring countries of whom more than 400,000 have gone to Russia |
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| Owlish52 | 9 Feb 2015, 12:14 PM Post #115 |
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Putin sounds more like Adolf every week. But his is really the classic Russian response - Peter the Great, Stalin. Russia is only comfortable, long-term, with a nice 'cushion' of non-Russian satellite states to offer them defense in depth. That those 'satellite states' resent their past treatment and look to get out from the spell of Russia is not significant to Russia, so when they try to flee, it is 'foreign intervention' that drives them, not their past treatment by Russia. Yeah, right. One thing I do agree with Merkel on here is that it's very unlikely that the West (and specifically the US) can put enough weapons and training (second more important than the first, IMO) into Ukraine to give Putin pause. Without 'boots on the ground' (not possible, IMO), there is no stopping Putin militarily. Continued economic pressure coupled with low oil & gas prices could drive a change in Russia, but that's a very long road to follow. Edited by Owlish52, 9 Feb 2015, 12:18 PM.
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| daib0 | 15 Feb 2015, 09:24 PM Post #116 |
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Ukraine truce 'generally holding' The ceasefire in Ukraine is "generally" being observed but there are local incidents, the French and German leaders say. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31475744 New map shown ... |
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| Owlish52 | 17 Feb 2015, 12:13 PM Post #117 |
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RR Foreign Legion - Across the Pond - View from Texas
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From the BBC (Link: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31495099) Ukraine crisis: Battle rages for key town of Debaltseve Fierce fighting is reported inside the key Ukrainian town of Debaltseve despite a ceasefire deal agreed last week. Rebels say they have taken most of Debaltseve, a transport hub, but the government says it is still in control. International observers tasked with monitoring the ceasefire have been unable to enter the town. Earlier, both sides failed to begin withdrawing heavy weapons, despite a Monday deadline agreed in the truce. The two sides were given until two days after the latest ceasefire came into effect to start the pullout. A spokesman for the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic told Russian news agency Interfax that the police station in Debaltseve had been taken as well as the railway station. He said most of the city was under the control of the separatists and that a mopping-up operation was continuing. The rebels also said that dozens of Ukrainian troops in Debaltseve had surrendered and others had been killed... Nothing like a nice Russian cease-fire to ensure "peace in our time", eh? So impossible to predict such an occurrence. |
| "It could have been worse with Hillary..." - Owlish52 | |
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| Owlish52 | 17 Feb 2015, 12:56 PM Post #118 |
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RR Foreign Legion - Across the Pond - View from Texas
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The West is truly and almost precisely in the position we were in 1937-1939 - promises made to a far-away nation that we can not back up when push comes to shove. And in my opinion, it is not merely a question of 'will not back up' (although IMO we do collectively lack the will as well) but simply can not back up - NATO and the US lack the force to intervene effectively in Ukraine against the Russian-backed 'insurgents'. There is a quote running about in my head along the lines of "Diplomacy writes checks that in the final analysis military power may be required to pay cash to redeem." While the combined military and economic pressure from the West was able to cause the Soviet Union to fail, the West was not really that much stronger than the Soviet Empire and has not proved able to 'win the peace' effectively. The U.S.A. was unable to convince Manuel Noriega to leave office in Panama or Saddam Hussein to withdraw from Kuwait without the application of military force (and had to go a second round with Hussein), so how can we expect diplomacy to succeed in forcing Russia to withdraw from Ukraine? In the long run, the West may succeed containing the New Russian Empire using combined military and economic pressure, but there will be a lot of collateral damage in the process - IMO, look toward the Baltic States (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) for the next round - Ukraine is not the only Czechoslovakia, but only the first. I recommend the article The Role of Force in Diplomacy: Continuing Dilemma for U.S. Foreign Policy by Alexander L. George (Link: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/military/force/article.html - that centre of neo-Conservative viewpoint National Public Radio [actually, a very liberal-leaning source ]) for an in-depth review of part of this issue.
Edited by Owlish52, 17 Feb 2015, 01:03 PM.
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| "It could have been worse with Hillary..." - Owlish52 | |
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| SuffolkRoyal | 17 Feb 2015, 01:30 PM Post #119 |
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As truces go, this one is as fragile as any. Its a very dangerous time and we all need to hope that history does not repeat itself. |
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| Clyde1998 | 18 Feb 2015, 12:41 AM Post #120 |
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The problem is that we don't know that Russia are backing the protesters. The western media say that they are, but are they just saying what NATO want to hear? |
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]) for an in-depth review of part of this issue.

8:32 AM Jul 11