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| Ukraine; Ukraine & Russia - Putin backers & protesters | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: 18 Dec 2013, 09:59 PM (3,466 Views) | |
| daib0 | 18 Feb 2015, 10:36 AM Post #121 |
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I think it's pretty proven to be honest. Where do they get their new tanks from if not?
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| daib0 | 18 Feb 2015, 12:22 PM Post #122 |
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Analysis: David Stern, BBC News, Kiev The rapidly deteriorating situation inside Debaltseve and its possible fall to Russian-backed forces - despite a ceasefire brokered specifically to avoid this scenario - raises a number of questions but one in particular: What were Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande thinking? Did they receive assurances that the insurgents would observe the ceasefire? Or was the fate of the strategic railroad junction under question even during the Minsk negotiations? If so, why did the Europeans proceed with an agreement that was unenforceable? It's entirely possible that the Minsk accords have done irreparable damage to the peace process and seriously weakened the position of President Petro Poroshenko. Ukrainian officials may very well be asking what other "exceptions" to the ceasefire will the rebels insist on? Mrs Merkel and Mr Hollande have long insisted there's no military solution to the war in eastern Ukraine. Now there may not be a diplomatic one either. |
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| Owlish52 | 18 Feb 2015, 12:42 PM Post #123 |
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Putin has taken the idea of 'Plausible deniability' (the ability for persons (typically senior officials in a formal or informal chain of command) to deny knowledge of and responsibility for any damnable actions committed by others (usually subordinates in an organizational hierarchy) because of a lack of evidence that can confirm their participation) to a new level with his control of the Russian media, IMO reaching the level of implausible deniability. Modern warfare has huge logistical requirement - food, fuel, ammunition, weapons and personnel. Ukraine has unquestionably received help from other former Warsaw pact nations with ammunition, food and fuel needs, and probably some weapons as well. But the 'rebels' have been on the offensive, and the Ukranian forces have largely been on the defensive, and maintaining an offensive required much more support. Putin has admitted that Russian 'volunteers' have gone into Ukraine to support the rebels, and there has been evidence that entire Russian units have 'volunteered' - and taken extensive casualties inside Ukraine. It's pretty clear that those 'volunteers' have brought weapons, uniforms and ammunition with them, and that fresh supplies have been provided as well. Media outlets can tell stories, and can spread disinformation, but events demand explanation, and what other source of supply and support do these 'rebels' and 'volunteers' have? Each individual will believe what they choose to, but they have the responsibility to have some foundation for their beliefs. In my opinion, belief that Russia is not directly and extensively supporting the 'pro-Russian forces' in Ukraine is not consistent with the evidence on the ground, or even with the 'information' being provided by Russian sources. The idea that eastern Ukraine could support the troop levels the 'rebels' currently have, let alone that they claim to be recruiting, is not sustainable, IMO. This is, again in my opinion, a clear-cut Russian invasion of Ukraine, with a most delicate 'construction of lies' being used to try to obscure the Russian hand behind the 'rebel' puppets. In most cases, it's simply Putin or his mouthpieces making new claims of NATO's "legions" fighting to suppress the 'pro-Russian' forces - with no evidence at all on offer. |
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| Clyde1998 | 18 Feb 2015, 03:16 PM Post #124 |
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Since the cease-fire - is what I meant to say.
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| daib0 | 18 Feb 2015, 11:10 PM Post #125 |
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Newdevelopment ... BBC News Ukraine calls for UN peacekeepers President Petro Poroshenko calls for UN peacekeepers to be sent to eastern Ukraine after his forces withdraw from the besieged city of Debaltseve. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31527414 |
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| daib0 | 18 Feb 2015, 11:11 PM Post #126 |
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Minsk agreement: Key points Ceasefire from 00:01 on 15 February (22:01 GMT 14 February) Heavy weapons to be withdrawn, beginning on 16 February and completed in two weeks - beyond a buffer zone behind the current front line for Ukrainian forces and behind the September front line for separatist forces All prisoners to be released; amnesty for those involved in fighting Withdrawal of all foreign troops and weapons from Ukrainian territory. Disarmament of all illegal groups Ukraine to allow resumption of normal life in rebel areas, by lifting restrictions Constitutional reform to enable decentralisation for rebel regions by the end of 2015 Ukraine to control border with Russia if conditions met by the end of 2015 |
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| daib0 | 18 Feb 2015, 11:12 PM Post #127 |
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At the scene: Paul Adams, BBC News, eastern Ukraine All Wednesday, the road out of Debaltseve into government-held territory thundered to the sound of retreating armour - tanks and troop carriers full of exhausted, sometimes defiant soldiers. In a bus by the side of the road, I found one Yuri slumped on his seat, across the aisle from a sleeping colleague. He said the situation had become increasingly dire and individual units had taken their own decisions to leave. They were running out of ammunition and in danger of being surrounded, he told me. He blamed Russian President Vladimir Putin for deceiving everyone about the ceasefire. We know him well by now, he said. When he says something is guaranteed, that means there's some kind of trap coming up. In nearby fields, mortars and multiple rocket launchers fired back at the rebels - providing cover for those still trying to leave Debaltseve. President Poroshenko says the withdrawal was planned and organised, but on the ground, it looked like a hasty retreat in the face of overwhelming odds. |
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| Owlish52 | 19 Feb 2015, 10:18 AM Post #128 |
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Putin responds to the call for UN Observers... from the BBC (link: http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31530252) - Russia's UN ambassador Vitaly Churkin has denounced Ukraine's call for the deployment of UN peacekeepers in eastern Ukraine as a destructive move. The Ukrainian president's call "raises suspicions that he wants to destroy the Minsk accords", Mr Churkin said. The Minsk ceasefire deal was reached a week ago but fighting round the strategic city of Debaltseve saw the withdrawal of Ukrainian troops there. Russian-backed rebels in eastern Ukraine also criticised the proposal... When one side calls for observers and the other protests, claiming those calls 'seek to destroy' a (not-well observed) cease-fire, one can only wonder what the side protesting seeks to conceal... Edited by Owlish52, 19 Feb 2015, 10:19 AM.
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| daib0 | 21 Feb 2015, 12:13 PM Post #129 |
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Russians rally against Kiev 'coup' A rally is under way in Moscow to condemn the "coup" in neighbouring Ukraine, a year after the downfall of its pro-Russian president. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31561769 |
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| daib0 | 21 Feb 2015, 12:14 PM Post #130 |
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