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Ukraine; Ukraine & Russia - Putin backers & protesters
Topic Started: 18 Dec 2013, 09:59 PM (3,471 Views)
Owlish52
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The Malaysia airliner was at about 30,000 feet; the Ukrainian military AN-26 transport aircraft shot down recently was at 21,000 feet (see above).
"It could have been worse with Hillary..." - Owlish52
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Owlish52
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The BUK anti-aircraft missile system being cited in some reports has an integral radar system with a range of 20 miles/32 km (matching the missile max range) and a target acquisition radar with a maximum detection range of 53 miles/85 km. To these radars, the flight path of Flight MH17 would appear to be coming from Kiev and headed toward the pro-Russian held part of southeastern Ukraine. It's hard to see such a flight path appearing to be a threat to a Ukrainian military unit, but very easy to see it seeming to be a Ukrainian flight to a pro-Russian operator that might have limited training and experience with the weapon system. This flight path would be very similar to that the Ukrainian aircraft shot down earlier this week would have been on.

At this point, it's all circumstantial, but that circumstantial evidence points toward the pro-Russian forces as possibly making a serious error in perceiving a civilian airliner for a Ukrainian military flight. It's hard for me to believe that a fully trained Russian military crew would have engaged the aircraft, but a 'scratch' crew with limited command/control supervision that had had a big success earlier might have gotten over-eager and been unaware of the commercial aircraft airway in the area.
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Owlish52
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Purported transcript of a series of cellular telephone calls:

"Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo.

Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?

IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. It's smoking.

VG: How many minutes ago?

IB: About 30 minutes ago.

After examining the site of the plane the terrorists come to the conclusion that they have shot down a civilian plane. The next part of the conversation took place about 40 minutes later.

“Major”: These are Chernukhin folks shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.

“Greek”: Yes, Major.

"Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (code word for dead person). We have found the first “200”. A Civilian.

Greek: Well, what do you have there?

Major: In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.

Greek: Are many people there?

Major: Holy #$%$! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).

Greek: What kind of aircraft?

Major: I haven’t ascertained this. I haven’t been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.

Greek: Is there anything left of the weapon?

Major: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.

Greek: Are there documents?

Major: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson. #$%$

In a final phone call, included later in the recording, a rebel checks in with a Cossack commander.

Rebel: Regarding this plane that was downed in the Snizhne-Torez area. It turned out to be a passenger aircraft. It fell near Grabovo. A lot of bodies of women and children. Now the Cossacks are looking at all that.

Rebel: The TV said it was AN-26. A Ukrainian cargo plane. But Malaysia Airlines is written on it. What was it doing on Ukraine’s territory?

Cossack commander: It means they wanted to bring some spies to us. #$%$ them. They should not fly, we are at war here."


The source for this is the Ukrainian government, so it's not proven that this transcript is correct. It does not read well in any case. :sigh: :pessimist:
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daib0
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Latest figures released by Malaysia Airlines show the plane was carrying people from
Netherlands: 189
Malaysia: 44 (including 15 crew)
Australian: 27
Indonesia: 12
UK: 9
Germany: 4
Belgium: 4
Philippines: 3
Canada: 1
New Zealand: 1
Unverified: 4

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Owlish52
18 Jul 2014, 12:08 AM
The BUK anti-aircraft missile system being cited in some reports has an integral radar system with a range of 20 miles/32 km (matching the missile max range) and a target acquisition radar with a maximum detection range of 53 miles/85 km. To these radars, the flight path of Flight MH17 would appear to be coming from Kiev and headed toward the pro-Russian held part of southeastern Ukraine. It's hard to see such a flight path appearing to be a threat to a Ukrainian military unit, but very easy to see it seeming to be a Ukrainian flight to a pro-Russian operator that might have limited training and experience with the weapon system. This flight path would be very similar to that the Ukrainian aircraft shot down earlier this week would have been on.

At this point, it's all circumstantial, but that circumstantial evidence points toward the pro-Russian forces as possibly making a serious error in perceiving a civilian airliner for a Ukrainian military flight. It's hard for me to believe that a fully trained Russian military crew would have engaged the aircraft, but a 'scratch' crew with limited command/control supervision that had had a big success earlier might have gotten over-eager and been unaware of the commercial aircraft airway in the area.
Aviation experts have said the echo given off by the plane would have been almost identical to that given off by an AN-26 plane so going by radar echo alone there was no way to distinguish it as a civilian plane.

Media reports also suggest that Pro-Russian separatist leader Igor Strelkov/Girkin initially claimed responsibility on twitter but deleted the tweet after it became apparent it was a civilian aircraft not a Ukrainian military one.

Shortly after the passenger plane was downed, Strelkov tweeted a boastful message claiming responsibility. At the time, he apparently believed he had shot down an Antonov-26 military plane of the Ukrainian Air Force, saying it landed near a mine named Progress. His chilling message read: ‘17.07.2014 17:50 (Moscow time) In the region of Torez AN-26 plane has been shot, it is somewhere near the “Progress” mine. We have warned them – not to fly “in our sky”. Here is video-proof of yet another “bird fall”. The bird has fallen behind the terricone, it missed the residential quarters. Peaceful citizens were not hurt. There is also information on the second shot plane, “Su” as it seems.’ Later as the horror became clear, the tweet was deleted

There is a screen cap of the original written in Russian: http://www.businessinsider.com/igor-strelkov-comments-on-malaysia-mh17-2014-7


It seems the pilot had a bad feeling and felt unsafe hence why he altered the course slightly, how awful he ended up turning into danger and not away from it. If I say I'm glad he didn't survive to have to live with that on his conscience I am sure you understand what I mean. The knowledge of that would have torn him apart. There's no words really to describe what an utter tragedy and waste of life this is. RIP to those who died, thoughts and prayers with their families and may those responsible be brought to justice before they rot in hell.

So many innocents dying in various world wide willy waving contests, what an utterly sick world this can be :'(
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daib0
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Couple missed Malaysia Airlines flight that crashed because of lack of seats

British couple unable to get the Malaysia Airlines flight that crashed, killing almost 300 people, speak of "sick feeling" of escaping with young baby


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10975021/Couple-missed-Malaysia-Airlines-flight-that-crashed-because-of-lack-of-seats.html
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Owlish52
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Every indication so far points toward an action by the pro-Russian rebels that had a totally unforeseen and undesired result. While I'd love to blast Putin and the Russians with both barrels, I question whether this system came from the Russians - again, there is circumstantial evidence that it was captured from the Ukrainian army by the rebels.

It is interesting (in a perverse sort of way) that in a June 30 Pentagon news conference, NATO Supreme Commander Gen. Philip Breedlove said Russia had been providing air defense training to Russian separatists on its side of the border with Ukraine that focused on “vehicle-borne” surface-to-air missiles. I wonder _why_ they might have been providing such training? Link: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2014/07/nato-general-warned-of-russian-anti-aircraft-training-for-separatists/
Edited by Owlish52, 19 Jul 2014, 09:39 AM.
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Owlish52
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Next step is for Russian 'investigators' to find missile parts (with conveniently legible serial numbers matching convenient Russian records with ink almost dry) from BUK missiles provided to Ukraine in the debris field.
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daib0
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Owlish52
19 Jul 2014, 09:38 AM
Every indication so far points toward an action by the pro-Russian rebels that had a totally unforeseen and undesired result. While I'd love to blast Putin and the Russians with both barrels, I question whether this system came from the Russians - again, there is circumstantial evidence that it was captured from the Ukrainian army by the rebels.

It is interesting (in a perverse sort of way) that in a June 30 Pentagon news conference, NATO Supreme Commander Gen. Philip Breedlove said Russia had been providing air defense training to Russian separatists on its side of the border with Ukraine that focused on “vehicle-borne” surface-to-air missiles. I wonder _why_ they might have been providing such training? Link: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2014/07/nato-general-warned-of-russian-anti-aircraft-training-for-separatists/
the Blackpool BHS forum has -



"A senior pro-Russian rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has suggested that many of the victims of the MH17 plane crash may have died days before the plane took off.
Igor Girkin said, on the pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna, that he was told by people at the crash site that a "significant number" of the bodies were not fresh.
The alleged former Russian military intelligence agent added that he was told the bodies of the victims were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.
Girkin, who is also known as Strelkov, said he could not confirm the bizarre claim but added: "Ukrainian authorities are capable of any baseness." He also said that a large amount of blood serum and medications were found at the site of the wreckage.
The Malaysian Airlines MH17 jet was 'shot down' over a rebel-held part of eastern Ukraine on Thursday while en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. All 298 people on board died, including 80 children.
Pro-Russian rebels have been accused of looting valuables belonging to victims of the crash and attempting to destroy any criminal evidence linking the crash to the separatists.
International observers said pro-Russian rebels have also hampered their access to the wreckage of the plane.
Michael Bociurkiw, a spokesman for the European security watchdog OSCE, said his team's access to the crash site had been limited despite assurances from the regional rebel commander that they would be allowed into the area.
"A visibly intoxicated armed guard fired his rifle in the air when one of the observers walked out of the prescribed area," Bociurkiw told journalists.
The 25 observers withdrew after just over an hour when they were unable to set up an access corridor for specialist teams to investigate the crash.
The pro-Russian self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic has denied reports that an agreement was reached between Kiev and pro-Russian rebels to set up a 20km (20-mile) security zone around the wreckage.
Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said it is vital for investigators to have full access to the site as it is likely that there are attempts to "sanitise" the crash scene.
"The site needs to be secure," he said. "The investigation needs to take place and frankly anyone who tries to obstruct this is no friend of justice and is no friend of peace."
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daib0
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BBC News


MH17 air crash: Recovered bodies put on train

The remains of up to 169 people from the MH17 crash in Ukraine have been loaded on to refrigerated rail wagons, to be taken to an unknown destination.

Emergency workers said earlier that 196 bodies had been recovered from the area in rebel-controlled territory where the Malaysia Airlines jet came down.

International monitors were informed that 169 had been moved to the train in the nearby town of Torez.

All 298 people on MH17 died when a missile reportedly hit it on Thursday.

Western countries have criticised the pro-Russian rebels in the area for restricting access to the crash site.

Full article: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28389991
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